Russia vs China

[RoboCon]

Hello there! I see you are discussing Russo-Chinese secret alliance. Perhaps I can be of assistance.

This is pratically spelled out in the scriptures. Of course, the liberals continue to ignore the threats that have plagued us since McArthur, so we have no choice but to move forward on our own - without Congress if need be. 9-11 changed everything. The Axis of Evil would be walking arm in arm with Hollywood fatheads, but its clear that they hate America, only to a lesser degree.

[BeBMan]

Oh and

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Kontiki


Don't forget that the Americans ride to the rescue and almost single handedly annihilate the Chinese army, navy and air force with never-fail super weapons while never taking a single casualty themselves.

I left that part out intentionally since I think the Russians can accomplish the other parts without the Yanks

[Blaupanzer]

Originally posted by RoboCon
Hello there! I see you are discussing Russo-Chinese secret alliance.

Doesn't appear very secret. China makes a market for Russian arms and energy, raises capital selling cheap labor produced goods to America. the Russia/China relationship looks way to cozy for them to fight over the Amur river valley and a barren stretch of ungovernable land.

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by RoboCon
Hello there! I see you are discussing Russo-Chinese secret alliance. Perhaps I can be of assistance.

This is pratically spelled out in the scriptures. Of course, the liberals continue to ignore the threats that have plagued us since McArthur, so we have no choice but to move forward on our own - without Congress if need be. 9-11 changed everything. The Axis of Evil would be walking arm in arm with Hollywood fatheads, but its clear that they hate America, only to a lesser degree.

Prove it.

[RoboCon]

Hello there! Thank you for quoting me as you continue to discuss Russo-Chinese secret alliance. Perhaps I can be of further assistance.

Stalin continues to dominate headlines while liberals scurry for cover on pressing social issues. Flag-burning notwithstanding, mid-term elections are frequently good litnus tests, or so says Tom Daschle. The terrorists are laughing at us, Hamas dares up to drop the big one, knowing full well the liberal Congress would intervene. Sad days for America and for farmers in particular.

[Lonestar]

...Stalin?

[Lonestar]

This is one Hell of a bot.

[BeBMan]

It's OTBOT's dl

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Lonestar



Prove it.

the real challenge is to prove it from THIS WEEK's Torah portion. Giving yourself the entire bible is for wusses.


Hence - this weeks portion

Ad-noy spoke to Moshe, saying.

Verse 2: "Take revenge for Bnei Yisroel against the Midianites, afterward, you shall be gathered to your people (die)."

Now, Birodijian, along the Russo Chinese border, was designated by Stalin as Yiddish speaking, jewish homeland. But it never amounted to much, in part because Stalin slaughtered the Yiddish intelligentsia. So Obviously the Midianites are the Russians, and China is to take revenge on them.

Verse 3: Moshe spoke to the people, saying: "Arm men from among yourselves for the army and they will be against Midian, to bring revenge of Ad-noy against Midian.

Which explains the massive Chinese arms buildup.

Verse 4: One thousand from each tribe, one thousand from each tribe, for all of the tribes of Yisroel, you shall send into the army."

Verse 5: They were handed over from among the thousands of Yisroel, one thousand from each tribe, twelve thousand armed men for the army.

These represent the different command units of the PLA (exactly how will require further research). It is also an implied rebuke to George Bush, for creating an Iraqi army thats ethnically imbalanced.

Verse 6: Moshe sent, one thousand from each tribe to the army, them, and Pinchas, son of Elozor the kohein to the army, with the sacred vessels and the trumpets in his hand.

Do you realize how much jazz music is growing in China? Do you?

Verse 7: They mounted a campaign against Midian, as Ad-noy had commanded Moshe, and they killed every male.

Verse 8: They killed the Midianite kings upon those they had slain: Evi, Rekem, Tzur, Chur and Reva--- [the] five kings of Midian. And Bil'am son of Beor they killed with the sword.

Now if they killed very male, why mention the slain kings? Obviously the death of every male is a reference to the alcoholism and high male death rates afflicting Russia. Aside from those killed in battle, only Putin and his four leading supporters will be executed (obviously Yeltsin is excluded, since he in numbered with the alcoholics) I note that Chur sounds just like the name of a river that played a role in the battle of Stalingrad.

Verse 9: Bnei Yisroel took captive the Midianite women and their children. All their livestock, flocks and wealth they took as booty.

This means that the Chinese will take the mineral wealth of Siberia. Cattle in Hebrew is behamah, and gold is zahav. Instead of reading zahav, read zeh tov - it is good. This is (or was) the slogan of Ossem, the Israeli food products concern, which is why livestock and flocks are mentioned - alternatively see Genesis, where animals are created, and the creator says "it was good"

Verse 10: All their residential cities and palaces they set on fire.

This is the bombing. Also, the chinese will build their own cities, they dont want Russian construction.

Verse 11: They took all the booty, all that had been seized, of man and livestock,

This cannot mean the mineral resources, as thats already been mentioned. Ergo, it refers to the port of Vladivostok - a man is like a port, he gives out words and takes them in as port takes in and sends out cargo - but he profits only if he takes customs duties - IE if he is studies carefully what he is told, and is careful in his speech.

[LordShiva]

[Vince278]

The above verses apply to Israel methinks.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Kontiki


Don't forget that the Americans ride to the rescue and almost single handedly annihilate the Chinese army, navy and air force with never-fail super weapons while never taking a single casualty themselves.

I'm normally a pacifist, but that sounds like jolly good fun. Sign me up!

[Darius871]

Originally posted by Sikander

I'm normally a pacifist, but that sounds like jolly good fun. Sign me up!

Seems ironic given that insignia.

[Serb]

Originally posted by GePap
Russian and Chinese tanks are not that different in quality.

Sorry, but they are different both in quality and quantity. Russia has enourmous experience in tank design, much greater experience/capability in tank manufacturing and MUCH greater experience in proper use of tanks on the battlefield. What do China has? Well, we sold them tiny portion of our tanks. Sorry, but that's not enough to defeat the designers and manufacturers of the weapons you bought.

Russia may be spending more than before, but China can still outspend them. As for numbers, I am looking for numbers.

Military budgets of both countries are approximately of the same size (somewhere between 25-30 bln$). But you forgot that 95% of Chinese military imports goes from Russia:

"According to currently available data, China signed
arms agreements with suppliers worth almost
$13 billion from 2000-2005, with deliveries during
this period estimated at $11 billion. Russia alone
provided approximately 95 percent of arms sold to
China in the last decade and remains China’s chief
supplier of weapons and materiel." (see attached file)

While Russia produce their own weapons for its army and actually is world's second largest arms dealer after USA.

The Russians might be more mechanized overall, but in some of this terrain it would not matter.

Russians not only better mechanized, they also have superior firepower. And it does matter at any enviroment.

Russia's airbases are farther away,

Russian bombers can reach and turn to dust absolutely any piece of Chinese soil. Their dams and airfields would be a nice choice for the first targets.

and China has again more money to spend on not only buying more aircraft,

Who will sell them those aircrafts? All more or less modern equipment they have are Russian-made. Who will sell them spare parts and ammunition for their existing modern Russian aircrafts?

but increasing production sinc eit has licensed to produce aircraft of Russia design.

You overestimate China. Russia is one of the leaders of world's aircraft/space industry, China is not. Their capability to produce modern jets is not comparable to ours.

The SU-27's China has are good enough, even if Russia has SU-31's (IIRC),

http://www.airwar.ru/enc_e/other/su31.html

Even if their Su-27 of the same quality as Russian Su-27 they assemble them under licence from the Russian half stuffs. That means China has nothing better or equal of their own, nor it has the capability to produce equal or better jet from scratch. The country wich airforce's best planes are produced under licence from Russian half stuffs just CANNOT outproduce Russia in manufacture of Su-27, not to mention we have Su-30, Su-35, Su-37 and will have a fifth generation fighter within next few years.

specially since Russia does nto have many- heck,

We surely have much more than them. Let's compare.

Chinese Bombers:

H-5 - version of the Il-28 by Harbin Aircraft Manufacturing Corp (HAMC) (Cold war, mostly retired)
H-6 - version of the Tu-16 Badger by HAMC (Cold war, ~120 in service)

Serb: Il-28 entered servise in Soviet Airforce in 1950 and Tu-16 in 1955. Both models retired from service in Russian Airforce long time ago. They are obsolete as hell (A 50 years old design). So, I think it will be fair to say that China has no adequate bomber force AT ALL.

Total: ~120 Light, absolutely obsolete bombers.

Russian Bombers:

Tu-22M* Backfire 265 (100 Frontal Air Force; 165 Navy)

Total: 265 Modern Long Range Bombers.

Chinese strategic bombers:
None.

Total: No operational strategic bombers.

Russian Strategic Bombers:

Tu-95/142 Bear 88 (Strategic Force, Navy)
Tu-160 Blackjack 15 (Strategic Force) Serb: another 3 bombers will be commisioned this year, then Russian Airforce will recieve one bomber per year up to 2015.

Total: 103 (actually 106 already) Modern Strategic Bombers.

Conclusions regarding bombers:
Tu-22M it's a Russian counterpart of B1-Lancer, Tu-95 is Russian counterpart of B-52, and Tu-160 is just rocks!!! A masterpiece of military hardware.
So, Russian airforce wins here hands down both in quality and quantity.

Chinese Fighter-Bombers:

JH-7 Flying Leopard - aka FBC-1, indigenous Fighter-Bomber (Modern, 20-40 in service with PLANAF)
JH-7A - Improved JH-7 Fighter-Bomber (Modern, 20-40 in PLANAF, some may be in PLAAF 28th Division)
Q-5 - A ground attack aircraft developed from the MiG-19 (Cold war, ~300 in service)

Total:340-380 Operational Attack Aircraft, only 40-80 are modern planes (counterparts of Russian Su-24), the bulk (300 planes) is totaly obsolete.


Russian Fighter-Bombers:

Su-24M Fencer 497 (367 Frontal Air Force; 130 Navy)
Planned modernization to reach Su-24M2 level.
Su-25 Frogfoot 262 (192 Frontal Air Force; 70 Navy)
Planned modernization to reach the Su-25SM level.
Su-34 Fullback 8 (Frontal Air Force) Serb: at least 6 were already ordered for 2007, +10 for 2008 and +24 for 2010. Russia will recieve 40 world's best fighter-bombers within next four years.

Total: 767 Operational Attack Aircraft

Conclusions regarding Fighter-bombers:
Again Russian Airforce wins hands down both in quality and quantity.


Chinese Fighters:

Shenyang J-8BJ-5 - version of the MiG-17 (Retired, some converted to drones/UAV's)
J-6 - version of the MiG-19 (Mostly retired, few used in training/reserve units)
J-7 - version of the MiG-21 (~450-500)
J-8 - indigenous 3rd generation fighter (~300) Serb: Actually it's a Chinese copy of Soviet Mig-25.
Su-27 - imported Su-27SK fighters from Russia (34 Su27SK & 42 Su27UBK) Serb: Su27UBK - it's a training aircraft, so it doesn't fully count.
J-11 - version of the Su-27 (200 Licensed,~100 have currently been assembled)

J-10 - fourth generation domestic, fielded in limited numbers (50~100 in service, full production is projected to start in 2006) Serb: It's hardly a domestic fighter, considered an amount of Russian equipment it has.
Su-30MKK - imported multi-role fighter from Russia for PLAAF (76 in service) Serb notice to self: This number is surprisingly matches with the number of Su27SK and Su27UBK they have.
Su-30MK2 - Upgraded Su-30MKK for PLANAF (24 in service). Serb: Actually it's just a naval variant of Su-30MKK.

Total: ~ 1076-1176 Operational Fighters (including 42 Su27UBK traning aircrafts). The bulk (750-800 planes) is obsolete. The rest (326-376 planes, again including 42 training aircrafts) are modern.

Russian Fighters:

Su-33 Flanker (Su-27K) 52 (Navy)
Su-27 Flanker air superiority fighter 452 (150 Frontal Air Force; 200 Air Defence)
Are being modernized to reach Su-27SM level.
MiG-29 Fulcrum 455 (345 Frontal Air Force; 110 Navy)
Planned modernization to reach the MiG-29SMT level.
MiG-31 Foxhound 325 (25 Frontal Air Force; 300 Air Defence)
Su-35 Super Flanker 11 (Frontal Air Force)

Total: 1,295 Modern Operational Fighters.

Conclusion regarding fighters: Once again Russian airforce wins hands down both in quality and quantity*.


Chinese Special Mission Aircrafts

KJ-2000 - Latest AWAC aircraft (3)
Y-8 AEW- Electronic Warfare aircraft (2~4)
Y-8J - Surveillance aircraft (6~8)
Y-8 MPA - Maritime patrol aircraft (~4)
Tu-154 - EW and Surveillance aircraft (4~6)
Y-8 ELINT - Electronic Intelligence Warfare aircraft (2)
Y-8 AWACS - Equipped with balance beam radar (1 + 1 lost)
Y-8 C3I - Command Post variant (at least 1 testing)
Y-8 Battlefield Surveillance]] - Mounted with a cheek radar on both sides (at least 1 testing)

Total: 28 operational Special Mission Aircrafts.


Russian Special Mission Aircrafts

Su-24MR/MP Fencer 100 (80 Frontal Air Force; 20 Navy)
MiG-25RB Foxbat 80 (80 Frontal Air Force)
A-50 Mainstay AWACS ~15. Serb: The correct number is 16, but let it 15, who cares?

Total: 195 Operational Special Mission Aircrafts.

Conclusion regarding Special Mission Aircraft: I know nothing about the quality of Chinese Special Mission Aircrafts, except that their latest AWAC aircraft KJ-2000 (they have three of them, we have 16) is the copy of Russian A-50. Anyhow, even assuming that planes of the same quality, Russian Airforce again wins hands down in terms of quantity 195 vs. 28.


Chinese Transport Aircraft

Y-5 - Licensed copy of Russian Antonov An-2, made since 1950's. Light utility/transport aircraft (Cold War). Serb: it's a joke An-2 it's a single-engine biplane went in production in 40's. Soviets had thousands, if not tens of thousands, of them in agriculture.
Y-7 - Copy of the Russian An-24, Y-7H based on An-26 (Cold War) (60-80 in service)
Y-8 - Copy of the Russian An-12 (Cold War) (100+ in service)
Y-8-F600 - Modernized Y-8 Transport (Modernized)
Y-9 - Multi-purpose transport aircraft under development (Under Development)
IL-76MD - The PLAAF imported a number of Ilyushin IL-76MD medium-range transport, and the IL-78 trankers in 1990's & 2005. (Modern) (14 in service + 30 to be delivered)

Total: 14 modern transport planes (Russian Il-76) and 160-180 totaly obsolete planes with 2-3 times lesser payload capacity and lesser range.

Russian Transport Aircraft

Il-76 Candid 300 (Serb: China has 14 such planes).
An-72 Coaler 20
An-124 Condor 25 (Serb:btw, world's best transport plane)

Total: 345 Modern Transport Planes.

Conclusion: Russian Airforce again wins hands down both in quality and quantity.


General conclusion: RUSSIA WINS HANDS DOWN!!!



* - In addition to modern aircrafts currently in service in Russian Airforce, we also have over 800 "obsolete" aircrafts like Mig-23, Mig-27, Mig-29 (early versions of Mig-29), Su-17, Su-22 and Tu-22Ì in "strategic reserve", just like we store obsolete tanks. This is the story of Chinese Armed Forces - the equipment we've stop using a long time ago and held in our storehouses just in case of emeregency, they consider as modern hardware.

the Russian have been able to keep several of their military construction lines afloat only thanks to exports, mainly to China.

Who cares? The nightmare of Yeltsin's days is over. We design and produce top class aircrafts, China doesn't. The end of story.

Rockets would be irrelevant to a ground war, since neither state would have an incentive for nuclear war.

You must be kidding.
A single such MRLS can vaporize a regiment of People's Liberation Army without any risk of nuclear retaliation.

http://www.splav.org/en/arms/smerch/index.asp

That's called a superior firepower!:b

Most of them have for the last few years been doing as much as they can to leave the Russia spehere, except the trully autocratic that rely on Russia for power.

Yeah, right, like Uzbekistan for example.

BUt China has more to invest that Russia. China is the future, Russia, well, not. These states would have no reason to get involved either way, not

would they add much. And cutting off one of their main customers for Russia would make no sense. There would be no rational reason for them to cut the

spigot. China can be a better sugar daddy.

Ever heard about defensive alliance (collective defence treaty) we have with CIS countries?

This I find funny. Russia's fleet is in sad shape. And fleets don;t survive near coasts with 0 air cover. Even lower quality Chinese aircraft in numbers would sink the Russia fleets if it got under their air range. Heck, that lesson is 50 years old! Again, navies without air cover will lose against air power, and Russia would have no way to protect its pacific fleet in what you imagine doing. Your other statements have good points, but this one is just loony.

Who told you Russia can't cover its fleet? We will win a war in air, no doubt.

Edited: Forget to add links to sorces:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Liberation_Army_Air_Force

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Federation_Air_Force

Annual Report to Congress Military Power of the People’s Republic of China, 2006:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/2006/2006-prc-military-power.htm