Russia vs China

[LordShiva]

We were waiting for you to drop in

[Bosh]

Serb vs. UR

Battle of the brainwashed!

fight! fight! fight!

[Serb]

You see a brainwashed person each time you shave.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Lonestar


The Best Chinese military hardware (Tanks, BTRs, Sukhois) are as good as the best Russian hardware(They're the same!). AND there's a lot more of them!

See my reply to GePap.

Now you're talking out of the arsehole. China had the latest model Su27s and the J-10s (Based on the Israeli Lavi design that somehow migrated over to China)

Do you realize that the value of J-10 equals to zero without Russian AL-31FN turbofan engines? We produce engines for J-10 as well as other equipment. China can't produce them on their own. Jets don't fly without engines, so in case of war between two countries - forget about "domestic-made" J-10.

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by Serb

See my reply to GePap.

See, the problem with your statements, is that when you let someone license build something (which Russia has done with every non-naval equipment package it sold to China) you give them the ability to reproduce it much easier. Russia gave China the rope with which to hang it.

Do you realize that the value of J-10 equals to zero without Russian AL-31FN turbofan engines? We produce engines for J-10 as well as other equipment. China can't produce them on their own. Jets don't fly without engines, so in case of war between two countries - forget about "domestic-made" J-10.

Of course, China could just respond to that with the same thing it always does: Reverse engineer and go from there. I mean, it isn't like Russki millitray equipment is overly complicated.


EDIT: In any event, both the Russians and Chinese are believers of the "Throw mass numbers into the fight with cheaply made rifles" doctrine, and China has many, many more(and has been training to get away from that, as well)

[Serb]

Originally posted by Lonestar
See, the problem with your statements, is that when you let someone license build something (which Russia has done with every non-naval equipment package it sold to China) you give them the ability to reproduce it much easier. Russia gave China the rope with which to hang it.

Blah.
Who has the better chances in war, the side wich created and mass-produced some sort of weaponry or the side which bought a license to produce some?

Of course, China could just respond to that with the same thing it always does: Reverse engineer and go from there.

Bullsh!t.
Reverse engineering of TV-sets, CD-players, vacuum cleaners, plastic toys, etc is one thing, reverse engineering of ultramodern hi-tech military hardware is another.
Do you think if UK gave the blueprints of its Dreadnought to some kind of Zibabwe a century ago, that Zimbabwe could build a single such battleship or at least to gain an understanding of how to construct one?
To produce a top-class jet fighters you have to create an entire industry. That requires a sh!tloads of resources and more importantly- time. You have to educate generations of scientists, designers, engineers, workers, etc. You have to create a network of auxiliary facilities, etc, etc, etc.
Modern Russian jets doesn't appear from nowhere. USSR invested dozens of billions and dozens of decades of time to create an aircraft industry which now produces one of the world's best planes. China is only experimenting in that field. While they learn how to make a fourth generation fighter (which we mass-produce since long time ago), we learn how to mass-produce a fifth gereation fighter. The side which sold the license always have a bonus, while the side which bought a license is always handicapped.
China has copied Soviet AK-47 assult rifle a deacades ago, but even nowadays the barrel of their version of AK-47 just melts down each time their soldiers fire a long burst. The service life of their copy of AK-47 equals to one magazine.

I mean, it isn't like Russki millitray equipment is overly complicated.

Even United States of America cannnot produce such engine. That engine provides unchallenged agility to Russian fighters and you guys really have no brains to produce something similar.
The AL-31F is a high-efficient, high temperature turbofan with module configuration to be installed on SU-37, SU-30MK aircraft as well as on other modification of SU-27S.
The AL-31F can operate in a wide range of reliably altitudes and flight speeds. The engine works reliably in conditions of deep surge of the air intake with M=2 as well as in flat, straight and inverted spins. The engine ensures unique aircraft maneuverability including super dynamic aerobatics in negative speeds up to 200 km/h.

The AL-31F provides high gas dynamic stability and strength which maintain engine reliable performance in extreme condition of inlet distortion. The AL-31F can be manufactured both in standard and tropic version.

http://www.warfare.ru/?catid=341&linkid=2493

Not complicated, my as$.

EDIT: In any event, both the Russians and Chinese are believers of the "Throw mass numbers into the fight with cheaply made rifles" doctrine, and China has many, many more(and has been training to get away from that, as well)

In any event, Americans are believers of "American supremacy doctrine" and "Russia uses human waves" concept. Good for us. Keep living in your fantasy world of sh!tty Hollywood movies. When time will come, you will regret about your arrogance.

[Serb]

When Russians and Chinese fought against each other last time in 1969, China thrown an entire rifle division against Soviets border guards. When Soviets brought reinforcements (one T-62 tank company and a regiment of MRLS "Grad") Chinese troops run with tails between their legs. Overall in the battle for Damansky island Russians were outnumbered by 10:1. When the battle was over Russians lost 58 KIA, including 19 troops killed during the initial ambush (they were totaly outnumbered and were took by surprise) while China lost 800 troops (or up to 3000 according to Soviets). That's called a superior firepower and training.

[Eli]

Number of Russians not drugged, drunk or dying of AIDS and able to man all those planes and tanks: 7.

Number of Chinese able and willing to fight: 100,000,000.

[Serb]

Let me guess, your source is www.bullsh!t.com
Right?

[Zkribbler]

Originally posted by LordShiva

I disagree with this.

China's equipment is of far inferior quality. Despite funding problems, Russia still has technology on its side, and since the oil and gas have started flowing, have been pouring money back into the military. China has the edge in manpower, but a sore disadvantage in armour - Russian tanks are more numerous and better serviced than Chinese, and would chew up whatever China threw at them over land.

In the air - no contest. China most advanced jets are older versions of Russia's fleet of Sukhois and MiGs, and are fewer in number. An in terms of missiles, probably the only country that can match Russia in short- and medium- range (not to mention ICBMs) is the U.S.

Re: supply lines: The Chinese side of the frontier isn't as developed as you make it sound. The Chinese Far West is much harder to get to than Russia's central steppes, and the road and rail links would be easily dealt with from the air. Besides, Chinese military concentrations are biased towards Taiwan.

Re: C. Asian "republics" - they're still allied to Russia, members of the C.I.S., dependent on Russian investment, and most importantly, home to several large Russian military bases. Even without the ex-Soviet strongmen with their pro-Russian leanings in charge, the presence of those troops on their soil would convince any ruler about whose side to be on.

Russia would probably lose Vladivostok, since the Far East is harder for them to get to. But not before the entire Pacific Fleet sailed for Shanghai harbour and bombed the **** out of it. China's navy, which is far from blue water, would be no match for Russian subs, allowing Russian boats to sail up and down the Chinese coast shelling/firing missiles at everything between Beijing and Hong Kong. And without the oil-laden ship lanes, China's economy chokes within a week or two.

But, the most important reason for why China would not kick Russia's ass is that neither side has any interest whatsoever in conflict.

This is one of the most well thought outl posts I have seen on this site.

[DaShi]

Serb, don't forget that China bought a lot of Russian weapons and other military equipment. All of which has secret devices that the Russians can activate at any time to turn them against their enemies.

[Serb]

Originally posted by DaShi
Serb, don't forget that China bought a lot of Russian weapons and other military equipment. All of which has secret devices that the Russians can activate at any time to turn them against their enemies.

If you think that you've said something funny, you simply have no idea about modern arms market. Every importer of hi-tech equipment makes a little patches in it to prevent that equipment being used in military conflict against the manufacturing country.
In case of war between Russia and China every plane we sold to them will malfunction and go down when it will recieve a FOF signal from any Russian plane.

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by Serb

Blah.
Who has the better chances in war, the side wich created and mass-produced some sort of weaponry or the side which bought a license to produce some?

The one who has been spending the past twenty years building it's infastructure and industrial capacity over the one that has been sliding back into not being important.

Bullsh!t.
Reverse engineering of TV-sets, CD-players, vacuum cleaners, plastic toys, etc is one thing, reverse engineering of ultramodern hi-tech military hardware is another.

Here you assume that modern Russian military hardware is more complex than, say, modern Plasma screen tvs or microwave ovens(or just modern commercial semiconductors, people like Micron and Axeclis have facilities in China. They don't in Russia.)

Do you think if UK gave the blueprints of its Dreadnought to some kind of Zibabwe a century ago, that Zimbabwe could build a single such battleship or at least to gain an understanding of how to construct one?

Yes, because 21st China is exactly like a subsaharan African country that didn't exist a 100 years ago.

To produce a top-class jet fighters you have to create an entire industry. That requires a sh!tloads of resources and more importantly- time. You have to educate generations of scientists, designers, engineers, workers, etc. You have to create a network of auxiliary facilities, etc, etc, etc.

You just described what the PRC has been doing since the late 70s. Congrats!

Modern Russian jets doesn't appear from nowhere. USSR invested dozens of billions and dozens of decades of time to create an aircraft industry which now produces one of the world's best planes. China is only experimenting in that field. While they learn how to make a fourth generation fighter (which we mass-produce since long time ago), we learn how to mass-produce a fifth gereation fighter. The side which sold the license always have a bonus, while the side which bought a license is always handicapped.

Not if the country that designed it (Russia) can't remove it's head from it's rectum and graps the concept of "Industrial distribution" in the modern capitalist age.

China has copied Soviet AK-47 assult rifle a deacades ago, but even nowadays the barrel of their version of AK-47 just melts down each time their soldiers fire a long burst. The service life of their copy of AK-47 equals to one magazine.

Oh yeah, I hear complaints about that all the time.

No, wait, sounds like another event in Serbland.

Even United States of America cannnot produce such engine. That engine provides unchallenged agility to Russian fighters and you guys really have no brains to produce something similar.

The most powerful and complex engine in the world is a Pratt and Whitney, not Russian. Here

In any event, Americans are believers of "American supremacy doctrine" and "Russia uses human waves" concept. Good for us. Keep living in your fantasy world of sh!tty Hollywood movies. When time will come, you will regret about your arrogance.

Believe what you want, but Russia has always been a big believer of quantity over quality, and while they have been able to turn out some really good weapons in numbers (T-34,T-80s) America has proven to be able to produce weapons systems much better than their Russian counterparts, and with almost no affect on the production line.

[Lancer]

Originally posted by Zkribbler


This is one of the most well thought outl posts I have seen on this site.

That is an excellent post, except it lacks proper rabble rousing which a thread like this, based entirely upon boredom before work and wanting for a better idea, really depends on.

I'll give it a B+.

[Zkribbler]

Brilliant, insightful posts
Rabble rousing
Rabble rousing by Zkribbler