"what they need to do is get Syria to get Hezbollah to stop..."

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara

Originally posted by Oerdin
It's become a matter of principle like when the UK refused to speak to the IRA until they renounced violence.

Actually, the original demand by the Brits was that the IRA disarm and disband, and then the Brits would agree to negotiate. Why is it that other states always demand the complete surrender of the other side before they begin to negotiate to do what they should have done before violence broke out? And who believes they're actually gonna do it. If there were no violence in Gaza, Israel would claim that the negros were perfectly happy being slaves that the Palestinians weer perfectly happy with occupation.

When Serbia does it, its genocide. When Israel does it, it's legitimate self defense.

Kosovo is probably going to get its independence. Let me say here and now, that IF Kosovo, or a group openly tolerated by the govt of Kosovo, calls for the destruction of Serbia, stockpiles thousands of rockets along the Serbian border, and then enters Serbia to kidnap Serbian soldier, and Serbia responds with a campaign as restrained as Israels is, I will be the first to support Serbia's legitimate right of self-defense.

[lord of the mark]

"On February 12, Jumblatt contrasted a 1962 Lebanese army map that shows the Shabaa farms are outside Lebanon's borders with a 2001 map provided by Lebanon's former director-general of general security, Major General Jamil al-Sayyid, which shows the farms within Lebanese territory. Jumblatt said this new map and the principle of the liberation of the Shabaa farms through resistance are an obstacle to building Lebanon, LNNA reported. "This map permits an armed force [Hizballah] to control the south and to use it indefinitely, through the Lebanese-Syrian-Iranian alliance, for the benefit of the [Syrian] regime and the Islamic Republic of Iran, while Lebanon remains a captive," Jumblatt said. Use of the newer map means that "Lebanon's destiny and independence remain in limbo for many years to come," Jumblatt said, adding that Lebanon risks remaining "a hostage of the avarice of the Syrian regime and of the Islamic Republic of Iran"

[Arrian]

Does Israel claim the farms are properly in Israeli territory?

-Arrian

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Arrian
Does Israel claim the farms are properly in Israeli territory?

-Arrian

Israel claims they are Syrian, and that they were occupied during the 1967 war, and therefore are subject to negotiation with Syria on the principle of land for peace, pursuant to UNSC Res 242. If they are Lebanese, then Israel would have to give them up without getting the quid pro quo of peace with Syria.

[lord of the mark]

http://www.lgic.org/en/faq_shebaa01.php

Beginning in 1924, the Shebaa Farms were considered Lebanese territory. But Syria refused to accept that fact as it refused Lebanon's right to independence. It seized the Farms in the 1950s and maintained its control over them until it lost them with the Golan Heights to Israel in 1967. The Syrian control over the Farms created an anomalous situation in which the residents of the Farms were Lebanese nationals and the land was Lebanese property, but the administration and authority were Syrian.

Lebanon did not agree to the Syrian control over the Farms, but did not raise the issue with the United Nations in order not to amplify the problem with Syria. In fact, Lebanon tried to establish a police station in the Farms, but several Lebanese gendarmes were killed by the Syrians and others were evicted by force, an event that is documented in one of the issues of the Lebanese Army Magazine. Retired Lieutenant Colonel Adnan Shaaban declared in a press panel sponsored by the Arabic daily An-Nahar on December 4, 2000 that the Shebaa Farms are Lebanese territory under Syrian sovereignty, reminding everyone of the document published by the Lebanese Soldier magazine in 1961. In it, it was reported that four Lebanese soldiers of various ranks entered the Farms and were killed by Syrian soldiers because the land was under Syrian sovereignty (in the Syrian interpretation), and photos of these events are available in the files of the Directorate of Information and Orientation.

The residents and land owners of the Farms themselves repeatedly appealed to successive Lebanese governments (from President Beshara El-Khoury to President Fuad Shihab), and they also raised their complaints a number of times directly to the Syrian governments through petitions, sit-ins, and dispatching envoys and mediators, but to no avail. Syria insisted on maintaining its authority over the Farms.

The former Prime Minister of Lebanon, the late Sami El-Solh, mentioned the Shebaa Farms in his book, Lebanon: Political Absurdity and Unknown Fate (Dar An-Nahar Lil-Nashr, First Edition, pp. 293-294). He said,

"Syrian-Lebanese relations continued to deteriorate between 1956 and 1958, which resulted in serious border problems when Syrian authorities established a police station and a post for the Mujahideen in the Shebaa Farms according to Lebanese security sources. The residents of the Farms were warned in September 1957 by Syrian authorities that they should submit family and personal data that included their acceptance of the Syrian nationality instead of the Lebanese. With the recurring incidents against Lebanese civilians, a delegation of notables from Shebaa led by the Mayor went to Damascus to discuss the issue with high officials in the Syrian leadership including Prime Minister Sabri Al-Assali and Speaker Akram Al-Hourani, but achieved nothing. And when the same delegation from the south visited me and informed me of the details of the developments, I emphasized to the delegation the need for them to hold on and keep to their Lebanese identity. I promised them to work at resolving the problem, supporting their efforts, preventing the attacks against them, and reducing the pressure placed on them. I immediately contacted the Egyptian ambassador in Damascus, Mahmoud Riyad, and explained the situation to him and the harassment suffered by the Lebanese citizens of the Farms. I told him that this behavior was not in the interests of Egypt, and neither was it in the interests of Lebanon and Syria. It does in fact harm the relations and basic interests of the concerned countries and their peoples, and I emphatically informed him that the issue will have a negative impact on both the Arab and international arenas because it is no longer a simple issue of sending troops and weapons across the border, but has now become an attempt at annexing land and people. At the same time, I issued Decree N_ 493 dated December 12, 1957 to the Lebanese authorities in the Shebaa Farms to record all incidents and violations and to exert all possible efforts at maintaining the Lebanese identity of the Farms (which include: Kfardouma, Marah Al-Mouloul, Qafoua, Ramta, Khallet Ghazaleh, Fashkoul, Jouret Al-Aqareb, Al-Roubaa, Beit El-Dhimmi, Aardata, etc.)"

During the 6-day war of June 6, 1967, Israel occupied the Golan and with it the Shebaa Farms. UN Security Council Resolution 242 issued on November 22, 1967 after the cessation of hostilities did not mention the Shebaa Farms as Lebanese land, whereas it clearly specified that all the territories occupied by Israel on the Syrian-Israeli front were Syrian territories. It should be noted here that Lebanon was not a part of this war, and at the time never said, officially or otherwise, that Israel had occupied any Lebanese territory. In 1972 Israel did enter certain areas on the Lebanese side of the border but this was a brief act that did not go beyond the town of Houla.

Lebanon again did not take part in the second Israeli-Arab war of 1973, and again did not consider any of its territory to have been occupied by Israel. UN Resolution 338 issued on November 22, 1973 makes no mention at all of any occupied Lebanese territory. Official Lebanon never said that Israel occupied a single inch of its land and remained bound by the Armistice Agreement of 1949.

In 1978 Israel invaded the Lebanese South under the banner of "Operation Litani", and on March 9, 1978 the UN Security Council voted Resolution 425 along with its mechanism of execution in the accompanying Resolution 426. Neither resolution mentioned the Shebaa Farms, and nowhere does the record show that Lebanon stated in Lebanese, Arab, or international venues that Israel occupies the Lebanese Shebaa Farms. Yet at the same time, the concerned countries, i.e Lebanon and Syria, the Arab countries and Israel did not consider resolutions 242 and 338 to have anything to do with Lebanon or its territory. Similarly resolutions 425 and 426 did not mention the Shebaa Farms, and did not consider them Israeli-occupied Lebanese land.

In 1982, Israel invaded Lebanon and reached the capital Beirut. It then withdrew to the South and remained there until May 2000. On September 17, 1982, the Security Council issued UN Resolution 520 that reaffirmed "Lebanon's determination to ensure the withdrawal of all non-Lebanese forces from Lebanon" and called "again for the strict respect for Lebanon's sovereignty, territorial integrity, unity and political independence under the sole and exclusive authority of the Lebanese Government through the Lebanese Army throughout Lebanon". This resolution did not mention the Shebaa Farms because they were part of the Syrian territories addressed by Resolutions 242 and 338 pertaining to the Syrian Golan Heights.

In October 1991, and with the end of the Gulf War, all the Arab countries, as well as Lebanon and Israel participated in the Madrid Conference under American-Russian sponsorship. Lebanon, by then entirely occupied by Syria under the Taef umbrella, stated that it was not concerned with Resolutions 242 and 338, focusing instead on Resolutions 425 and 426 and demanding a return to a commitment to the Armistice Agreement signed with Israel in 1949. At that time, neither Israel nor Syria, nor any Arab country for that matter mentioned the Shebaa Farms as occupied Lebanese territory. Both Syria and Lebanon adopted the same position in their negotiations with Israel that were held in the United States between 1994 and 1996 during President Clinton's reign and under his administration's sponsorship. Nowhere do the proceedings, reports, and minutes from these negotiations mention the Shebaa Farms, and again Lebanon demanded the implementation of the Armistice Agreement between Lebanon and Israel.

As it turns out and since Israel occupied the Golan in 1967 and later annexed it, and since the international observers assumed their mission of watching over the border between Israel and Syria, the Shebaa Farms were consistently considered by the international community as Syrian land. All international maps showed the Farms inside Syrian territory now occupied by Israel.

The former Syrian president Amin Hafez mentioned in his memoirs that the regime of Hafez Assad had sold the Golan to Israel in exchange for keeping him and all his cohort in power (memoirs are available on aljazeera web site)

It therefore becomes evident that the issue of the Shebaa Farms landed from the sky over the heads of the Lebanese people with a Syrian parachute. A poisoned and booby-trapped gift like all other Syrian gifts to Lebanon. The Farms issue is a pure fabrication specifically concocted by Syria to maintain its occupation of Lebanon and to create an anomalous situation along the Lebanese-Israeli border that will prevent the rise of a strong central government in Beirut. It also gives Syria the alibi to keep its military presence in the Lebanese arena directly via its troops and intelligence apparatus, and indirectly via Hezbollah, Amal, and the Palestinian and Lebanese organizations affiliated with her.

In the aftermath of the Israeli withdrawal in May 2000, the UN sent two of its delegates, along with Israeli and Lebanese participation, to map out the borders between the two countries. The outcome was the so-called Blue Line that dictated that the Shebaa Farms should be inside Syrian territory. Syria, Lebanon, Israel, and all the Arab countries recognized this line as the official border. However, Lebanon's recognition of the border came in two contradicting positions. On one hand, General Emile Lahoud sent a secret letter, which he did not share with his own Prime Minister Salim Hoss, to UN Secretary General Kofi Annan in which he recognized and agreed to the Blue Line as the official border line between Lebanon and Israel. However, to the media Lahoud presented the position that Lebanon refuses to acquiesce to the Blue Line before Israel withdrew from the Shebaa Farms. With this, the Syrian-controlled Lebanese media began their campaign to mobilize public opinion in favor of keeping Hezbollah armed, preventing the Lebanese Army from deploying along the border with Israel, and denying the state its obligation to assume security on its own territory with its own armed forces.

Yet another opportunity was lost, like so many others in the past three decades, to extricate the Lebanese South from the cycle of Arab-Israeli violence. Instead, the South was to remain a hostage to the Syrian blackmail, and Syria which had strictly abided by its own cease-fire agreement on the Golan with Israel since 1974, was clearly determined to recover the Golan Heights with Lebanese blood and at the expense of Lebanon's stability and wellbeing. It is painfully surprising to the majority of the Lebanese people that the Shiite community of Lebanon – represented by Hezbollah and Amal – has fallen into the trap of sacrificing its own people and bringing ruin upon itself and on all the other communities of the South of Lebanon to help Syria recover its own Golan Heights, when the Syrian-Israeli border itself has been quiet for over three decades. Since 1974 when the cease-fire agreement between Israel and Syria was signed, not one bullet was ever fired from inside Syria against the Israeli forces in the Golan Heights, These Heights that are not only occupied, but also annexed by Israel.

The fact is that the Lebanese South was to remain a time-bomb in the hands of the Syrians and the Iranians through the farce that says not to deploy the Lebanese Army to the Lebanese border so as not to be seen as protecting the Israeli border! A sick and tragic logic that makes Lebanon the laughing stock of the international community.

The UN tried to peacefully dismantle the booby-trap of the Shebaa Farms through the mechanisms of international law, by asking the Lebanese and Syrian governments to submit official documents signed by both countries and clearly specifying Syria's recognition of the Shebaa Farms as Lebanese. However, Syria refused to meet this demand and instead had its Foreign Minister Farouq Sharaa place an unofficial telephone call to the UN Secretary General Annan.

Annan reiterated his demand several times, but Syria ignored the request while the puppets of the Lebanese regime submitted to the Syrian game and persisted in their lies to their own people with the Baathist slogans of "one-path, one-destiny".

In a recent interview, the Maronite Patriarch Sfeir stated,

"Some tell us that Shebaa is Lebanese, and some tell us it is Syrian, and to this date we have not seen any official Syrian document presented to the UN that certifies Syria's recognition of the Lebanese identity of the Shebaa Farms. The Farms cannot be liberated by throwing stones across the Blue Line drawn between Israel and Lebanon, but by negotiating about them through the UN, especially since the Secretary General, Washington, and the European countries have confirmed that Israel has implemented Resolution 425. The Farms, which were under Syrian control when Israel occupied the Golan in 1967, are covered under Resolution 242, and not Resolution 425."

In sum, the Shebaa Farms are indeed Lebanese land, but Syria seized them by force and took control of them administratively and militarily from the early 1960s. In the process, it killed Lebanese gendarmes and shut down the Lebanese police station there, which was tantamount to evicting the Lebanese authorities from the Farms.

If the Syrian regime indeed wanted to help recover the Shebaa Farms and rid it of the Israeli occupation, it would have presented official documentation to the UN in which it recognized Lebanon's sovereignty over the Farms. The UN in turn would guarantee the return of the Farms to Lebanon without firing a single bullet. Israel has in fact expressed its readiness to withdraw from the Farms the moment Syria formally recognizes Lebanon's sovereignty over the Farms and the Lebanese Army deploys on the border.

Syria never recognized Lebanon's right to exist as an independent country. When the State of Greater Lebanon was defined in its present borders in 1920, Syria did not even exist as a country. Later when the Syrian State was created by the artificial coalescence of the disparate sanjaqs of Damascus, Aleppo, Hama, Homs, the Jabal Druze, and the Alaouite territory, successive Syrian governments categorically rejected the idea of establishing diplomatic relations with Lebanon. They also refrained from undertaking an official assessment of the borders between the two countries. Instead Syria maintained a policy of hostility towards Lebanon, continuously emphasizing the slogans of "brotherly" relations, "one people in two states", "the unity of geography and history", Lebanon as the "soft flank" of Syria, "the unity of path and destiny", and others.

If the Lebanese regime really wanted to liberate the Farms, it would have asked Syria for the official recognition in the document requested by the UN, and if Hezbollah genuinely wanted to liberate the Farms as it claims, it would have surrendered its weapons to the Lebanese State after Israel implemented Resolution 425 by withdrawing from the border strip, and would have allowed the Lebanese Army to deploy along the border and establish the State's authority over all Lebanese land. It also would have facilitated the implementation by the State of its obligations under Resolution 426.

And if Syria was truly in Lebanon to defend it against Israeli attacks, it would have fired at least one bullet against Israel for the length of its presence in Lebanon since 1976. And if Syria really wanted to protect Lebanon, it should have begun by protecting itself and its own occupied and annexed Golan.

On January 22, 2004 the An-Nahar daily reported the following: "Patriarch Sfeir lastly discussed with the visiting delegation from Hezbollah the subject of the ownership of the Shebaa Farms". We hope that the Patriarch explained to his visitors the whole truth about the Farms, and we also wish that the delegation remembered the following saying as it was leaving Bkerki, "You can fool some of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all the people all the time."

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
Kosovo is probably going to get its independence. Let me say here and now, that IF Kosovo, or a group openly tolerated by the govt of Kosovo, calls for the destruction of Serbia, stockpiles thousands of rockets along the Serbian border, and then enters Serbia to kidnap Serbian soldier, and Serbia responds with a campaign as restrained as Israels is, I will be the first to support Serbia's legitimate right of self-defense.

They have not stated any aim to destroy the whole of Serbia, nor do they have rockets on the border, AFAIK, but a group openly tolerated by NATO (former allies in fact) has already launched attacks on both Serbia proper and Macedonia from Kosovo, unleashed pogroms against the remaining non-Albanians in Kosovo, bombed the UN administration, and are attempting to destroy all traces of Serbian history in the province (whose name means nothing in Albanian, however they spell it). When independence happens, all traces of Serbian civilisation will be removed from Kosovo. When people talk of rogue states, they ain't seen nuthin' yet.

When Serbia acted in '98 and '99 to defend its own territory and to try and prevent this from happening, the response it got from the 'international community' was more or less the same as, say, Mobius's response to Israels current actions - that is to say strikingly unsympathetic.

I'm not directly equating the two scenarios. There are not direct parallels between the ME and Balkan conflicts, but some similarities - and contrasts.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Cort Haus

I'm not directly equating the two scenarios. There are not direct parallels between the ME and Balkan conflicts, but some similarities - and contrasts.

I agree that they are different, and that is why I responded to someone who claimed they are the same.

BTW, I wonder if Chegitz realizes the Israeli far right generally supported Serbia in 1999? Perhaps because they precisely had in mind a parallel between Kosovo and the West Bank, and envisioned taking actions strikingly similar to those taken by Serbia in Kosovo.

The current Israeli govt, which has suggested a unilateral withdrawl from most of the West Bank, clearly doesnt share that vision.

[Heresson]

Originally posted by BlackCat

Lebanon government has of course the right to live in lala land, but by choosing so, they shouldn't complain when the real world knocks on their door.

Why should Israel complain then, as well?
Israel's founders lived in a fairy-tale world in which Arabs would not get angry over taking their territory.
Currently Israel and America, and You too, live in a "lala land", in which complete destruction and invasion of a foreign state, threatening other and killing hundreds of people do not make people hate them and turn to who fights them.

I guess that you are referring to that area that noone knows to whom it belongs. If I were the Lebanese government I would be much more worried about the fact that a private army controls a third of the country. Unless, of course, I use it to hide this fact.

It does. But Israel's actions may result in more sympathy to Hezbollah, and Syria as well.

Originally posted by lord of the mark


The UN recognizes Israel as having completely withdrawn from Lebanon, and having gone back to the international border.

UN is an american toy, and America seems Israeli toy right now.

When it comes to Shebaa, I see no reason for Israel holding it other than wanting its water resources;' by giving Shebaa to Lebanon, Israel would destroy raison d'etre of Hezbollah. Additionally, it would assure that potentially dangerous for it Syria would not get it, but helpless Lebanon.

Syrian minister of information, Muhsin Bilal (who was once ambassador in Spain), travelled for the second time to Madrid and met with Miguel Angel Moratinos (once EU envoy in ME), ministry of FA of Spain. Spain assured close cooperation with Syria and stated it will present syrian point of view during Rome conference.
I surely did mention that Syria has full support of Venesuela and Brasil

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Heresson

UN is an american toy, and America seems Israeli toy right now.

You can believe that if you wish.

When it comes to Shebaa, I see no reason for Israel holding it other than wanting its water resources;' by giving Shebaa to Lebanon, Israel would destroy raison d'etre of Hezbollah. Additionally, it would assure that potentially dangerous for it Syria would not get it, but helpless Lebanon.

Hezbollah will just find a new rasion d'etre - like defending the oppressed Shiites from the Christian-Sunni elites. As long as the Lebanese govt doesnt control the South, Israel withdrawing just means turning it over to Hezbollah.

[Heresson]

I do not wish it. I am amazed by it, scared by it, enraged by it.

Sorry, I wasn't explicit: I've ment the raison d'etre of its fight against Israel.
Also, Hezbollah is not the only shiite party. Still, there's 'Amal.

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by Heresson


Why should Israel complain then, as well?
Israel's founders lived in a fairy-tale world in which Arabs would not get angry over taking their territory.

Please tell me wich jews that had that kind of thoughts.

Currently Israel and America, and You too, live in a "lala land", in which complete destruction and invasion of a foreign state, threatening other and killing hundreds of people do not make people hate them and turn to who fights them.

What are you talking about ? No country are on the verge of complete destruction - neither is it threatened of a full scale invasion.

About the civilian killings - whyb dosn't you blame hizbollah for this ? It is after all them that put their military targets in civlian areas.

It does. But Israel's actions may result in more sympathy to Hezbollah, and Syria as well.

And ? How many years of patience has Israel to display before you consider they have a right to react ?

[Kuciwalker]

It is after all them that put their military targets in civlian areas.

In fact, they put them in civilian with the specific intent of getting those civilians killed. Sometimes those civilians are also their domestic opposition.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Heresson

Sorry, I wasn't explicit: I've ment the raison d'etre of its fight against Israel.
Also, Hezbollah is not the only shiite party. Still, there's 'Amal.

They will come up with a raison d'etre for that as well. To help their palestinian brothers no doubt. Afterall, their Iranian backers threaten Israel, and yet hardly ever refer to Shabaa farms. AFAICT no one in Lebanon take the Shabaa farms excuse seriously. Walid Jumblatt doesnt, for example.

[Heresson]

Originally posted by BlackCat

Please tell me wich jews that had that kind of thoughts.

Either they were living in a fairy world, or they were aware they are going to cause a war and a long-lasting regional conflict
Either way, they are responsible for all that's happening since then up to current conflict.

What are you talking about ? No country are on the verge of complete destruction - neither is it threatened of a full scale invasion.

Lebanon's airports are destroyed and closed. Its ports blocked. It's land connections destroyed as well. Israel claimed considering moving large army into it. As for a state that relies on tourism and banking, it is disastrous.
Syria was threatened by both Israel and America.

About the civilian killings - whyb dosn't you blame hizbollah for this ? It is after all them that put their military targets in civlian areas.

yeah... surely, and all of them.

And ? How many years of patience has Israel to display before you consider they have a right to react ?

They haven't waited at all.
And its their actions that resulted in creation of Hezbollah, so they have no-one to blame but themselves

[Heresson]

Originally posted by lord of the mark



They will come up with a raison d'etre for that as well. To help their palestinian brothers no doubt. Afterall, their Iranian backers threaten Israel, and yet hardly ever refer to Shabaa farms. AFAICT no one in Lebanon take the Shabaa farms excuse seriously. Walid Jumblatt doesnt, for example.

He is an anti-syrian politician and a leader of a party rival to Hezbollah, so don't take his voice as objective