"what they need to do is get Syria to get Hezbollah to stop..."

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
Walid Jumblatt doesnt, for example.

I see you almost only quoting Walid Jumblatt when mentioning Lebanese opposition to Hezbollah.

Walid Jumblatt is indeed an important Lebanese politician, as he is the leader of the Druzes, and a craftsman of kicking out Syria. However, when you quote him, remember that he is a very vocal opponent of foreign meddling in Lebanon. He could have been targetted for his nationalistic activity just as much as Hariri. He is strongly against Hezbollah, and the current war makes it possible for him to be more vocal about it (whereas the climate of forced consensus, back when the country wasn't destroyed, forced him to have more cautious words)

In order to get a more complete picture of the Lebanese political spectrum, it might be wise to expand your quotes to other Lebanese politicians as well. I do not know what they're saying right now, so I can't predict the results of such research. But Jumblatt makes for a very biased source if he is taken alone.

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by Heresson


Either they were living in a fairy world, or they were aware they are going to cause a war and a long-lasting regional conflict
Either way, they are responsible for all that's happening since then up to current conflict.

Unless I'm wrong, then they were promised a land by the international community - besides that, why not consider them as immigrants that choose to settle down in a specific area ?

Lebanon's airports are destroyed and closed. Its ports blocked. It's land connections destroyed as well. Israel claimed considering moving large army into it. As for a state that relies on tourism and banking, it is disastrous.
Syria was threatened by both Israel and America.

What planet are you on ? The airports are used to fly in UN supplies, so I guess that they are functional. Seaports ? They have been a main resource for removing foreign citicens - that is, those that didn't took the road to damascus.

They haven't waited at all.
And its their actions that resulted in creation of Hezbollah, so they have no-one to blame but themselves

BS. The Israeli has been patient for years - they called back their army, destroyed their settlements and got what ?

I really don't care why or when hizbollah was created - the lebanese government didn't do their job to remove it.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by BlackCat
besides that, why not consider them as immigrants that choose to settle down in a specific area ?

Wow.

I'm at a loss about how to respond to such delusion.
Well, let's just say one thing. When the Serbs killed many Kosovars, and forced many, many more to flee and never return, were they "immigrants that choose to settle down in a specific area"?

I'm saying this, and I happen to want the continued existence of Israel. But to say that Israel started as simply a bunch of peaceful immigrants is absolutely insane. The very raison d'être of Israel as a Jewish state made ethnical policies (and thus ethnical cleansing) unavoidable.

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by Spiffor

Wow.

I'm at a loss about how to respond to such delusion.
Well, let's just say one thing. When the Serbs killed many Kosovars, and forced many, many more to flee and never return, were they "immigrants that choose to settle down in a specific area"?

Wow.

I'm at loss about how to respond to such delusion.

When "kosovars" migrated to the area now known as kosovo they actually won the right by simply being there and being the majority.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by BlackCat
When "kosovars" migrated to the area now known as kosovo they actually won the right by simply being there and being the majority.

So you agree that the Serbs in 1999 weren't just "immigrants that choose to settle down in a specific area"?

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by Spiffor

So you agree that the Serbs in 1999 weren't just "immigrants that choose to settle down in a specific area"?

That really doesn't make much sense.

[GePap]

I love LoTM's selective bolding. Specially when his article undermines what he is bolding.

If you read the long history of the Sheeba farms, what it states is that the area was Lebanese, and then the Syrians took it without any sort of legal holding, and then lost it to Israel. So Lebanese claims to the land are valid, as Syrian occupation of the farms was no more valid than Israeli occupation of the farms are. BUt then, what he posts blames it all on Syria....

I also love his continued inability to post links to where he supposedly gets these things.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by BlackCat
That really doesn't make much sense.

Are you aware that, in 1948, the Israelis killed quite a few Palestinians, and above all displaced a huge part of the Palestinian population?

And that the "return of refugees" has been one of the worst bone of contention between Israel and the Palestinians ever since, as Israel adamantly rejects it?

[Heresson]

doublepost

[Heresson]

Originally posted by BlackCat

Unless I'm wrong, then they were promised a land by the international community - besides that, why not consider them as immigrants that choose to settle down in a specific area ?

would illegal moroccan immigrants to Belgium or Denmark be allowed to create their states in these countries?
Arabs were promised this land by the british first, and fought Turks because of it. In 1917's Balfour Declaration jews were not promised a state at all, but a "national residence".
It was all without agreement with the Arabs anyway.
Palestine was not a colony or province of Britain. It was a mandate, so actually the British should just prepare
local people for independance, not grant this land to some foreign nation.
Jewish immigration to Palestine, largely illegal, caused much resentment among Arabs, especially that Jews were buying lands from grand land owners, often Turks or other non-Arabs, kicking out palestinian peasants and settling jews on their place.
The British promised to stop the immigration, but did not do it.

What planet are you on ? The airports are used to fly in UN supplies, so I guess that they are functional. Seaports ? They have been a main resource for removing foreign citicens - that is, those that didn't took the road to damascus.

Deary, most of lebaneese boarder is boarder with Syria.
It is mountain boarder, and there are only a couple of places You can cross it. Israel was so kind to destroy the biggest pass, I don't know about the others.
When it comes to the airports, it bombarded them and forced closure of them, only recently it agreed on a narrow air and sea corridor for humanitarian aid. UN asked for opening three ports for humanitarian aid, but apparently it was denied. All that is moving in and out of Lebanon has to be consulted with Israel, though, at least that's what Israelis demanded.

BS. The Israeli has been patient for years - they called back their army, destroyed their settlements and got what ?

They invaded the country, been occupying it for years, blew up some priceless remains of architecture deliberately, and countinued to occupy what is considered to be part of it.

I really don't care why or when hizbollah was created - the lebanese government didn't do their job to remove it.

why should they?

When "kosovars" migrated to the area now known as kosovo they actually won the right by simply being there and being the majority.

Oh, so why haven't Palestinians/Arabs won the right to Palestine in 1948 by the same conditions?

And that the "return of refugees" has been one of the worst bone of contention between Israel and the Palestinians ever since, as Israel adamantly rejects it?

And I think Israel should treat them as "immigrants that choose to settle down in a specific area".

[Flip McWho]

People are also forgetting that before the Brits pulled outta palestine the Israeli's were employing terrorist tactics to encourage the Brits to leave. But of course, back then it was in the name of national self determination and was alright after you'd just gone through what the Jews had gone through.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by BlackCat
Unless I'm wrong, then they were promised a land by the international community

Yes, you are wrong. Britain promised them a homeland in someone else's land, even before Britain had seized said land.

What planet are you on ? The airports are used to fly in UN supplies, so I guess that they are functional. Seaports ? They have been a main resource for removing foreign citicens - that is, those that didn't took the road to damascus.

The planes have to swerve around craters in the runway. The ports were bombed and are only functional now because the international community pressured Israel to stop bombing it in order to get their citizens out.

The Israeli has been patient for years - they called back their army, destroyed their settlements and got what ?

They still occupy a small part of Lebanon. They hold 9,000 Lebanese civilians in prison, they still oppress the Palestinians, both in the occupied territories and in Israel, etc.

I really don't care why or when hizbollah was created - the lebanese government didn't do their job to remove it.

So in your mind, the police should never wait for backup, even if they are greatly outnumbered. One cop should just charge into a bank being held by multiple bank robbers to the benefit of no one.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Spiffor

Are you aware that, in 1948, the Israelis killed quite a few Palestinians, and above all displaced a huge part of the Palestinian population?

And that the "return of refugees" has been one of the worst bone of contention between Israel and the Palestinians ever since, as Israel adamantly rejects it?

Even internal refugees who found themselves within Israel at the end of the wars have not been allowed to return to their homes. They've had to settle where they wound up, losing their old villages and farms.

[Flip McWho]

I suppose thats what you get when you think you have a divine right to be in a territory.

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by Spiffor
When the Serbs killed many Kosovars, and forced many, many more to flee and never return, were they "immigrants that choose to settle down in a specific area"?

Kosovo was part-of Serbia for hundreds of years and Serbs were a majority until WW2 when, under Italian then Nazi control, the pro-Fascist Albanian nationalists drove many Serbs out, a process that continued under Tito to give Albanians their demographic majority. The revoking of their autonomy was not an act of repression, but an attempt to stop the continued ethnic cleasning of non-Albanians. The term 'Ethnic Cleansing' was first coined by Albanian Nationalists to describe their policy in Kosovo.

There is zero evidence of any campaign to expell or gratuitously kill Albanian civilians in 98-99 on the part of the Yugoslav Government. On the contrary, the Milosevic trial produced a wad of evidence that proves that the FRY took far more effort to ensure that its troops adhered to the Geneva Conventions than, say, the USA did in Iraq.

Murders and crimes committed by Serbs against Albanians were by free-lance paramilitary crimimals, who where possible, were punished by the FRY state authorities for their war crimes during the war. These thugs were only able to do their dirty work because the NATO bombing had driven out the proper authorities.

There were evictions in some areas for the express purpose of avoiding civilian casualties, in KLA-active areas and in some border areas I believe - because a NATO invasion was anticipated and the state wanted to protect the civilians from the crossfire.

According to Cedomir Prlincevic, leader of the Jewish Community in Pristina, the mass explulsions blamed on the FRY were actually ordered by the KLA :

Prlincevic: To prove obedience to the KLA. This was the KLA's national plan. All loyal Albanians were to leave during the bombing and go to Albania or Macedonia to show the world how terrible the Serbs were; this exodus was staged; it was a performance, Hollywood in Kosovo. What is Hollywood without actors? A large number of Albanians had to perform, had to actually leave Kosovo. This was not so different from what they had been doing for ten years, you see, pretending they had been locked out of the schools when actually it was an organized boycott, and so on.

Moreover, once they were in the refugee camps, the Albanians would be under the direct leadership of the KLA, which could intensively indoctrinate them, Which it did.

All of the Albanian testimony was subject to the KLA handlers who ran the refugee camps. Most of the Albanians killed in the conflict were either KLA terrorists, or pro-Yugo Albanians murdered by the KLA.

The real 'ethnic cleansers' in Kosovo are the Albanian Nationalists and their NATO backers, as everybody would realise if they followed the facts rather than the anti-Serbian hype.