Prussia is in Poland?

[Saras]

Originally posted by Brachy-Pride
I have holes in my history of that part of europe, did the Polish lithuanian commonwealth rule all over those baltic germans ?

Did they conquer that territory?

Prussia was for some time a Polish fiefdom, and for some time the Commonwealth ruled Livonia, which included Latvia and most of southern Estonia.

[Zkribbler]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
The word Prussia derives from po-Russia (latin Borussia), which means "near Russia".

Does anyone else have this song running through their brain:

Russia, russia, Po-Russia
Banana bana bo-Russia,
Fee fie foe, Russia,
Prussia!!

[Wycoff]

Originally posted by Lancer
See now, that's the kind of thing that wouldn't go away, that I would have a hard time forgetting about. I'd find plans for that city and dream of tearing down their "piece of junk" and putting back that city.

But that's just me. I've got too much Irish from my mother's side. We love hopeless causes and don't forget.

It even makes me mad, and I'm only an ethnically-German American. I know that the 3rd Reich was responsible for terrible things, but the post war ethnic cleansing of Germans was pretty despicable in its own right. Königsberg was one of the finest cities in Eastern Europe. Kaliningrad is a cesspool.


Here's an interesting book on the expulsion of Germans from Eastern Europe after WW2.

A Terrible Revenge

[Lancer]

I'll check out your link, thanks.

Btw, you may find this extremely interesting...

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=154704

[Wycoff]

Originally posted by Lancer
Has any German put together a map of what Germany would look like if all the areas with a German majority were added in?

The first stanza of Deutschland Ãœber Alles does a good job describing the boundries of German settlement as it stood in the early to mid 19th century

Das Lied der Deutschen

It leaves out the sporadic German settlements throughout the Balkans, Romania, and Russia, but incorporates most of the core German lands.

[Lancer]

Originally posted by Lancer
I'll check out your link, thanks.

Btw, you may find this extremely interesting...

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...hreadid=154704

That's a really amazing link

[Colonâ„¢]

Originally posted by Ecthy
It's a small territory formerly in between Belgium and Prussia (later Germany) that was independant during most of the 19th century and ceded to Belgium after WWI. It consisted only of several villages and was disputed due to its richness in resources (zinc IIRC).

"Moresnet"? I think you mean the Oostkantons.

[Lancer]

Wycoff, I see why the Nazis cut it off after the first bit...

Unity and right and freedom
For the German fatherland;
This let us all pursue,
Brotherly with heart and hand.
Unity and justice and freedom
Are the pledge of happiness.
|: Prosper in this fortune's blessing,
Prosper, German fatherland. :|

[Colonâ„¢]

There used to be a pretty big German community in Antwerp as well, maybe 20,000 - 30,000 people, but they were properly chased out after WWI.

[Lancer]

Ethnic cleansing, Colon has always been an advocate.

[Hueij]

Back to the question of Kuchen: the rolled up thing with sugar is not German, it's Dutch. A pannenkoek

[Heresson]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
The word Prussia derives from po-Russia (latin Borussia), which means "near Russia". So, if Prussia is in Poland, it's where it's supposed to be. How silly is American knowledge of European geography?

Your claim about Prussia's name origin is wrong and silly.
Prussians were known as Prussians long before name of Russia was created, and it was even separated from earlier Ruthenia (Rus) by Poland, Lithuanians and Jacwings.

Originally posted by BeBro
My grandma came from Schlesien - Silesia in today's Poland. I was born in Erfurt, so I'm "technically" Thuringian. Just that my family moved to Berlin when I was a little child....

I don't recall You telling me that. Which city in Silesia, to be exact?

Originally posted by Gangerolf
I'm 1/32 sauerpreuss or whatever
the Polaks stole our beautiful Elbing

It was Polish for a long time before the partages
And it decided to join Poland itself during the 13-years war

Originally posted by Gangerolf
Well the Poles have been good at rebuilding the cities after WW2. Look at Breslau/Wroclaw and Danzig/Gdansk. Never been to Elbing, but iirc they started rebuilding the old town in the 90s. Good for tourism I guess.

I have a personal sympathy for Elblag (Elbing), and I must say that it's a pity and a shame what's happened to it after the war. As Germans leveled Warsaw to the ground, and Polish communist authorities weren't sure if they are going to keep some of the lands they got, Elbing was a cheep source of medieval brick to rebuilding of medieval Warsaw... I was always outraged by it.
They are rebuilding old city of Elblag, but unfortunatelly not according to the polish school of restoration, which simply rebuilds everything as it was when it was created. they are using the sick "medieval-inspired modern buildings" or whatever practice. I don't think it will be very nice. There's some old tower left there, I recall from the pics (I have seen before ww2 pics and the city was very nice), but I haven't been there.

Originally posted by Lancer


I think the Belgains are developing WMDs.

Originally posted by Brachy-Pride
I have holes in my history of that part of europe, did the Polish lithuanian commonwealth rule all over those baltic germans ?

Did they conquer that territory?

Originally posted by Brachy-Pride
Werent germans invited to Prussia by Poland to christianize the pagan natives, but the teutons decided to stay there instead of returning?

I will give You a short lesson of Prussian history.
Prussia was inhabited by baltic pagan tribes, close to Jacwings (extinct, in Lithuania today and partially in Poland west to Niemen river). It was divided in numerous regions, like Pomezania, Pogezania (these a bit east to Vistula/Wisla river and partially Polish since beginning), Warmia (in centre), Sambia (the sticking out part), Natangia (or something like this, in the north ), Galindia in the south and others I do not recall right not. They did have some sense of unity, but very weak one, and a common religious centre at Romowe i think.
Boleslaw Chrobry, the first king of Poland (992-1025, king since 1025, though permission gained 1000) fought southern Prussian tribes raiding Poland until they were almost exterminated. Since that time Poles were moving into southern Prussia, and it remained majorly Polish-speaking 9at least in rural regions, though not always identyfying with Poland, till ww2.
he also started a mission in Prussia, but St Wojciech, the bishop of Prague and later in Poland, a patron of Poland, was martyred there.
In XII century Poland became divided and Prussians got stronger. The boarder defence system created by wojewoda Krzysztof (I think) was destroyed after Konrad of Masovia killed him. The prussian matter became one of few things that united polish princes and was a common goal for them. They made a couple of common expeditions, instituted a polish warrior order, which was too weak, though. Eventually Konrad of Masovia decided to invite Teutonic Knights recently banned from Hungary (1206). They were given Z. Chelminska (where they located Torun/Thorn city), and were supposed to conquer Prussia for Konrad. but they forged a document granting them both Z. Chelminska and Prussia for themselves. They conquered Prussia in 50 years using the most cruel ways.
In 1308 or so brandenburgians, invited by opposition, invade polish Pomerania and besieged Gdansk/Danzig city. Polish king called its nominal subordinates, Teutonic Knights, for help, but they conquered Pomerania - since then known as Western Prussia, for themselves. Poland was too weak to oppose them, the richest provinces didn't make into reunited Poland, mighty Luxemburgs that owned Brandenburgia, Bohemia and Hungary claimed Polish throne for themselves, and teutonic Knights were receiving constant help from western Europe, organising crusades against "pagan" Poles and carving more and more into Poland.
After Poland united with Lithuania (mostly because of common teutonic knights' threat), Teutonic Knights were completely defeated 1410 in tannenberg (Grunwald) battle. initially almost entire prussia surrendered, yet it got Poland no gains, because
1) king didn't want it, because it would make union with lithuania obsolete and would probably mean his offspring wouldn't get the throne
2) when teutonic knights regained confidence and castles, poland had little means of besieging them
There were a couple of wars later on, but the decisive one was 1454-1466 13-year old war. Unhappy with TK rule Pomeranian and Prussian gentry and cities invited Poland. Again initially most of cities surrendered to Poland, but soon it turned into a gruelling war.
Peace of 1466 gave Poland back Pomerania, Z. Chelminska, Warmia and Marienburg (Malbork) - 2 regions in Prussia, including Elbing. these lands were from now on known as Royal Prussia.
The remaining part became a fief in Poland. grand masters weren't quiet vassals, though. 1520 a new war was started by grandmaster Abrecht Hohenzollern, a brandenburgian. He was completely crushed by 1525, but being a nephew of polish king, he was forced to no territorial concessions. instead he was allowed, or even advised to convert to protestantism. he became duke of Prussia, a polish vassal, and the first protestant ruler in the world. Poland was happy with this, because this ment no more help for him from papacy, emperor and western Europe.
Earlier, Poland had plans to resettle TK to Podolia so that they could protect Europe from the Turks, but they didn't want to.
It is assumed that last ethnic Prussians were exterminated by joined Prussian-Polish forces during the putting down of peasant revolt in Sambia in 1526
Originally, it was said that after Albrecht's line would perish, brandenburgians could not inherit Prussia and it should be handed over to Poland. Yet, for money, polish kings allowed brandenburgians to take care of mentally ill son of Albrecht, and then to inherit the duchy.
In result during 1655-1660 Swedish Flood, an invasion of Sweden, Brandenburgians attacked Poland to gain fool souvereignity over Prussia and wanting some other gains (Elbing!). According to 1657 Welawa-Bydgoszcz treaty, Prussia was handed over to Hohenzollerns with some minimal post-fief signs like having to assist Poland militarily and that Prussia should return to Poland after Hohenzollerns are extinct.
Prussian states were against this, and protested against "selling them like apples", but leader of Prussian opposition Kalkenstein (Stolinski) was kidnapped by Brandenburgians from Warsaw and executed in Prussia.
In 1773 Prussia participated in first partition of Poland,
and got all Royal Prussia and more but Gdansk and Torun
In 1792 partition Prussia got (among others) also Torun and Gdansk (Thorn and Danzig)
after ww1, Poland was given a small part of southern Prussia. In the rest, a plebiscite was supposed to be held.
germans won it completely, for a couple of reasons
1)protestant Masures didn't identify with catholic Poland, and in catholic Warmia papal nuntius 9and future pope Pius XII I think, though i may be wrong) called for voting for Germany
2)Masures remained under german administration, polish activists were intimidated or even killed
3)at the time plebiscite Soviets reached Warsaw, entire polish-prussian boarder was in their hands, and Poland seemed finished, as Germans always claimed it would be
4)the voting cards were a laugh. Not only Poland was printed in allien for population latin font, and german option was in used there gothic font, but also it wasn't a choice between Poland and Germany according to it! It was written... Poland or "East Prussia", their region.
After the war southern, Polish Prussia (Masures - a term coined by Germans in XIX century, it actually used to mean Poles earlier, and earlier it was simply called Polish districts) were given to Poland. However, poor economic and poltical situation caused most Masures to emigrate to Germany. they were borned in consitutional german boarders, so they had automatic german citizenship.

A map I attach
shows polish population in bigger Prussia.
blue-Z. Chelminska
yellow - original Prussia
red - Royal Prussia
pink - polish boarder after ww1
orange - boarders of russian Kaliningrad exclave. South to it is Poland, north to it is Lithuania.

[Lancer]

Heresson, why do the Germans hate Frogs?

[Heresson]

Because frogs love Poland I guess

[Lancer]