Prussia is in Poland?

[Cyclotron]

Originally posted by Provost Harrison
Pfannkuchen sounds awfully like pancake, and pannenkoeken. So whatever side of the war that is, you appear to have British and Dutch support

Not American support, though. They're obviously flapjacks.

[Lancer]

Yes, it was not acurately copied from American pancakes.

[Heresson]

Originally posted by Oerdin


They didn't leave voluntarially. They left because Stalin ordered it and because people with guns told them they'd be killed if they didn't. The Poles and Czechs were there to loot everything they left behind; which was virtually everything since the Germans were told they could only have what they could carry.

Let's face a few facts here. The Czechs, Poles, and Russians had good reasons to want revenge but what they did was entirely evil. Ethnic cleansing is never ok and more people should know about this deplorable act.

While Czechs ordered the expulsion themselves, Poles did not. The legal London gouverment, the one abandoned by western powers, was actually sceptical towards acquiring Lower Silesia because it claimed Poland could not absorb that number of Germans - it certainly didn't think of forcing them out.
Forcing Germans out was a common Soviet-British-American-(Frnech) decisions. The Germans gave examples to it during the war.
There was looting, but not quite as You imagine. Authorities didn't want it, and the victims were often Poles who already settled there. The first post-war president of my city was killed when he tried to stop a soviet soldier from looting.
Also, keep in mind Poles were displaced from polish eastern provinces as well, got no reparations (unless sometimes from Poland; my family didn't get any), and the conditions of transport were the same.
Except for that some were earlier taken to Kazachstan or Siberia and had to travel from there.

Originally posted by siron


Even when you start with nitpicking and ignoring all Germans who left before May 45 (see also Oerdin)...I think the bolded parts of your quote are simply wrong. Would like to see a source. (pls non-Stalinistic and non-Kaczynskistic-source)

Now, You give me proofs. Not German or anti-polish ones.

[Odin]

The ethnic cleansing of Prussia and Silesia after WW2 was disgusting, those areas were ethnically German for centuries. Russia should give Germany Konigsburg back at the very least

[Odin]

Oh, and Pfannkuchen are pancakes.

[Ecthy]

Odin, what for? The city is gone, all the Germans are gone. There's no claim on the area, and what would we do with it? Also, keep in mind that European security is built on territorial stability.

[Lancer]

Ecthy, that's just WAY too reasonable. These areas have been German for centuries. Just because Germany suffered a burp in it's sanity you're willing to cough up tens of thousands of sq kilometers without a major war?

You guys have maybe one decade of strength left before Russia annexes you economicly, better close up your turrets and get rolling!

[Ecthy]

Heresson, why should he not provide German sources to prove his point?

[Wycoff]

Originally posted by Ecthy
Odin, what for? The city is gone, all the Germans are gone. There's no claim on the area, and what would we do with it? Also, keep in mind that European security is built on territorial stability.

That's the sad thing. The Soviets removed the Germans, destroyed most of the architecture, built hideous Soviet monstrosities in its place (like the giant "Robot Head" House of Soviets building), and have allowed the socio-economic situation of the city deteriote to the point of approaching a third world country. It's basically a Baltic Moldova.

The Germans no longer have a claim to it thanks to the ethnic cleanising. (Though there were elements in the city government promoting a German recruitment drive in order to repopulate the area and create an excuse to tie their oblast to Germany rather than Russia) The Russians don't seem to know how to run the place, and the fact that its an exclave surrounded by the EU further complicates the matter. It's stuck in a weird limbo. I think that it will eventually declare independance, but that may trigger civil war.

Some interesting BBC articles on the area:
This article includes a picture of the "beautiful" Robot's Head

Another uplifting article

Interesting perspective on how some Kaliningraders feel about their German roots

[Odin]

Originally posted by Lancer

You guys have maybe one decade of strength left before Russia annexes you economicly, better close up your turrets and get rolling!

[Heresson]

Originally posted by Odin
The ethnic cleansing of Prussia and Silesia after WW2 was disgusting, those areas were ethnically German for centuries. Russia should give Germany Konigsburg back at the very least

It should return it all right, but to Poland.
Prussia and Silesia were not "ethnically German for centuries". Northern Prussia was Lithuanian up to XX century. The same, rural areas of southern Prussia were majorly Polish up to ww2.
Upper Silesia stayed majorly Polish up to today. And while only a couple of villages stayed Polish up to XX century in Lower Silesia, along Major Poland boarder, in XIX century much of its eastern part was Polish, including villages around its capital, Wroclaw / Breslau.
I don't know when Germans became a majority in Lower Silesia. Perhaps in XVII century, perhaps even later.
A phone book from Wroclaw-Breslau of the middlewar period consisted of Germans, but in 2/3 of Polish origin, as their surnames indicate.
I do not find dislocation of Germans disgusting, though definitely sad. A nation is responsible for its gouverment, unfortunatelly.
Germans elected Hitler and blindly followed him into war, mass enslavement, displacement and extermination of other nations. They wanted to gain territory - in result they lost it. While it is always sad when some tradition is distroyed, and people are carved out of the land they were living in sometimes for centuries. But this was nothing special in this region after the war! Millions of Poles were first displaced by Germans and Soviets, and then thrown out of the eastern provinces, including my own family. Throusands of Byelorussians and Ukrainians were displaced from Poland after ww2 as well, though much much less.
If someone deserved this kind of fate, it were Germans, not other nations. And I find some pluses. If there were millions of Germans left in Poland, agreement over the boarder would be hard. The same, if there were millions of Poles left in Ukraine, polish-ukrainian relations would be more complicated and we could have Balkans here.
I tell it despite that my roots, and posessions of my ancestors are in Ukraine.
Poles do not whine that much today about their lost of territory and expulsions of Poles after ww2 as Germans do, though by percent, they lost more, and without any fault on their side. Why? Because Germans have been the bad guy of ww2 and by this, it has great need to find some martyrology and see itself not only as the butcher, but also as the victim of ww2.
I do not say that what happened after ww2 was always nice. Some episodes were disgusting. But they always pale in comparison to what they were caused by, attrocities commited by Germans.

Originally posted by Ecthy
Heresson, why should he not provide German sources to prove his point?

I am afraid german sources are unevitably biased, just like polish ones are likely to be. Western sources probably are pro-german, telling from the general ignorance of western opinion, now and then, on eastern european subject and taking for granted every german claim.
I am always taking notice of what the posters of western countries post on polish-german relations.
And I rarely see something influenced by polish propaganda. It's german one that really influenced western thinking. And so, posters used Goebbel's "Polish corridor" expression,s sometimes they claim it has never been polish before, they have little knowledge of that the grounds Poland gained after ww2 were once polish and some had large polish population, while if they have knowledge about that Poland lost half of its territory, they always tend to refern to eastern polish provinces as ukrainian, byelorussian or lithuanian, and have absolutely no knowledge about that Poles were expelled from there as well.

[Ecthy]

I think you're to deep in it. Relax.

There can be a description of what's going on without bias and propaganda. Propaganda is usually state controlled, and trust me, even if there was such active propaganda (beyond culturally induced interpretations), scientists (in this case such as geographers, politoglogists and historians) would hardly fall for it.

If you find there are disparities, point them out as such, and try not to jump to conclusions evolving around "propaganda".

[Lancer]

Heresson, don't take my 'roll the tanks' stuff to seriously. I'm just having some fun with Ecthy who has been a pal (or something ) over the years.

Actually I hope that now that Poland is free of the Soviet overlords that Poland and Germany can effect some sort of union in order to face Russia with overwhelming force and absorb the Ukraine as slave underlords to raise food for you and provide peasant stock with which to confound alien attempts to geneticly alter europe to blah blah blah using anal probes. Though that part you are certainly free to continue on your own in concert with the Belgians.

[Ecthy]

[Lancer]