NHL Offseason: All 10 weeks of it

[Tingkai]

McCabe was the third highest scoring defenseman, a vital part of the Leafs powerplay and scored more points than Iginla last year. So nothing strange about paying McCabe $5.75 million a year.

It would be a problem if the salary was say as much as Pronger or Blake (over $6 million) or Lidstrom (over $7 million). But it is not, so no problem.

[Asher]

McCabe vanished in the last half of the season, and he showed how much he sucked in the Olympics.

He deserves in the 3-million range. Toronto way overpaid him. Highly overrated.

No one outside of Toronto is particularly enamored with him.

He's such a great defencemen that he didn't even get above 0 in +/-...

[Tingkai]

Three million??? You're living in a dream world. With the salary cap going up, McCabe salary is in the right world.

As for his second half, he was injured in January and February and that affected his stats. Happens to all players who get injured.

McCabe scored more points than Iginla. He's an offensive defencemen, which is something Calgary lacks big time.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Tingkai
He's an offensive defencemen, which is something Calgary lacks big time.

Please, Phaneuf has scored more goals than McCabe has in his rookie season as a 20-21 year old.

McCabe just benefits stats-wise from a system that encourages d-men to jump in the play when it's not a powerplay -- if you do that, Sutter benches your ass.

Phaneuf scores his points almost exclusively on the PP. If he were playing in a Quinn system his points would be far higher.

Calgary's D is absolutely fine, they've got Phaneuf, Hamrlik, and Regehr for point shots and all of which have bullets for the PPG.

This is why Calgary is a winning team and Toronto is not. They're defencemen for a reason, it's time you guys go back to basics and figure that out. It's not all about padding the stats.

We already know you don't watch hockey, which is why you made that "Calgary desperately needs an offensive defenseman" comment. If you watched the Flames play at all, the problem is really simple: they need a playmaker on the top line. Iginla needed help.

The goaltending and defense, in all aspects, were top-notch. To be honest, it's downright insulting for a Toronto fan/supporter to be giving Calgary pointers on defense...

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Tingkai
McCabe was the third highest scoring defenseman, a vital part of the Leafs powerplay and scored more points than Iginla last year. So nothing strange about paying McCabe $5.75 million a year.

It would be a problem if the salary was say as much as Pronger or Blake (over $6 million) or Lidstrom (over $7 million). But it is not, so no problem.

I doubt any of the UFA dmen are getting over 6 this year. Call it a feeling.

[Tingkai]

Dude, the world does not revolve around Phaneuf. Comparing his stats with McCabe's rookie year stats is just ridiculous. First there are the new NHL rules and secondly, what happens in a d-man's rookie year doesn't necessarily reflect their career abilities.

Phaneuf and McCabe each scored about 2/3 of their points on the powerplay. That blows your theory out the window.

The problem with the Flames is not its defence, it's the offence. In the new NHL, Sutter's approach won't work and that's why the Flames crashed.

The problem with the Leafs last year was Quinn's weird belief that there was no need to teach players any system. He relied on their natural abilities, which never worked when crunch time came down.

Maurice uses a completely different system that puts an emphasis on training and getting players ready to handle different systems.

Flames fans can only look forward to more of the disappointing same old defeats. Toronto fans can look forward to a year of improvement.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Tingkai
Dude, the world does not revolve around Phaneuf.

Dude, you just said the Flames badly need an offensive defenseman. I think quoting a defenseman who is putting up killer offensive stats is relevant.

Phaneuf and McCabe each scored about 2/3 of their points on the powerplay. That blows your theory out the window.

My theory? Watch the frickin' games. If a Calgary d-man is playing up offensively 5-5, he's benched right after. It happens all the time in Toronto games, though.

Look at PPG in particular between the two of them. How many regular strength goals does Phaneuf have...?

The problem with the Flames is not its defence, it's the offence.

Completely agree, which is why I called you out on your ridiculous comment. The defense is awesome as it is. Putting in an "offensive defenseman" like McCabe is suicide for Calgary because he leaves too many defensive gaps in his offensive meanderings.

In the new NHL, Sutter's approach won't work and that's why the Flames crashed.

Crashed? They won the frickin' division for the first time in franchise history.

We lost in game 7 of the first round for a variety of reasons, but none of which are Sutter's system doesn't work in the "new NHL" -- the Flames had a better record this season than last...

Flames fans can only look forward to more of the disappointing same old defeats. Toronto fans can look forward to a year of improvement.

LOL...

When was the last time Toronto won a stanley cup?
When was the last time Toronto made it to the cup finals, game 7?
When was the last time Toronto made it to the cup finals, period?
When was the last time Toronto made it to the conference finals?
When was the last time Toronto won its division?

Toronto is the team that fans should be looking forward to more of the same kinds of defeats. In reality, every year they think their team will magically do it -- and every year they f*ck it up. Didn't you make it to the playoffs in 03-04 and then miss them this season? Is that what passes for "improvement" in Toronto?

For instance, paying McCabe $5.5M is a f*ck up. If your GMs were smart, you'd find someone else to overpay him and pick up a better UFA D on the market. A real defenseman, I mean. It helps.

[Asher]

I do have a new sig now. Thanks Tingkai.

[Tingkai]

The Leafs have been there, done that. We've had our dynasties and our droughts so we know what it takes to win, unlike the folks in Calgary who don't understand the difference between a fluke and the real thing.

The Flames have only won once. Other than that they have done zip, nada, nothing.

The fact of the matter is that Shutter's strategy doesn't work. The Flames crashed in the first round because they were all defence and no offence. That simply doesn't work in the new NHL and it won't work next year.

So Asher, you might as well give up now.

Leafs fans, on the other hand, can look forward to a new coach with completely new strategy, one that is more in keeping with the new NHL. We'll have a new goalie who will follow in the footsteps of Cujo and Belfour. We've got a crop of young forwards who can score goals.

As for Phaneuf, he is not putting up killer offensive stats. His stats only look good when compared to the rest of the anemic Flames. He's not in the top three defencemen for points, unlike McCabe. He's not in the top five, unlike the Leaf's Kaberle. He's not even in the top 10.

And looking at ppg just shows how far behind Phaneuf is, which is not surprising given that he still wet behind the ears.

Killer stats? More like kiddie stats.

McCabe has earned his pay, and the amount that Leafs are paying is pretty much what he is worth. He provides the points, quarterbacks the powerplay and does his job in his end. With a new coach guiding the Leafs, his plus/minus willl shoot up.

Only a person who knows nothing about hockey would say he doesn't deserve that salary.

[cinch]

Two more cents on the Pronger situation:

Everyone, from Bob McKenzie on down, seems to think that the Oilers have to get this done ASAP for the best deal to be made. I disagree. While it would be nice to just get rid of the headache as quickly as possible, I think there might be something to be gained from a little patience. I mean, if teams are desperate for Pronger now, imagine how much moreso they'll be once Redden, Jovo, etc., are off the table. Plus, the teams which are eyeing signing those players (such as Ottawa or Florida) won't be as desperate to shell out young talent.

I'm not 100% sure on this, but I have a feeling that a little bit of waiting might do the Oil a world of good.

PS: Right now, probably my favourite trade possibility is Philly. How nice would a package of Pitkanen and Handzus be, maybe with either Carter or Richards tossed in for good measure? It'd be nice, but somehow I doubt Clarke would be so giving.

[Kontiki]

Who's going to be stupid enough to win the Jeremy Roenick sweepstakes? He says he wants to come to Canada - my money's on Toronto.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Tingkai
The Leafs have been there, done that. We've had our dynasties and our droughts so we know what it takes to win, unlike the folks in Calgary who don't understand the difference between a fluke and the real thing.

Dude, you haven't won a cup in 40 years. You haven't had a "dynasty" since there were only six teams in the league. You've been in a drought ever since the league became competitive.

The Flames have only won once. Other than that they have done zip, nada, nothing.

40 years, man.

The fact of the matter is that Shutter's strategy doesn't work. The Flames crashed in the first round because they were all defence and no offence.

The Flames crashed in the first round because of a number of factors:
1) Many of the offensive players Sutter gambled on grossly underperformed (Kobasew, Donovan, Lombardi, et. al)
2) Injuries -- Phaneuf played round one with a broken foot he sustained in the last regulation game, and was nowhere to be found in the playoffs. Nilson leads the team in +/- and is one of the best two-way forwards on the team.
3) Bryzgalov was frickin' hot

It had nothing to do with the Sutter system, but the inadequacies of the players on the offensive line. Iginla needed someone with a playmaking touch, like Conroy, to light it up as he has previous reasons.

As I've said, the Flames set a franchise record last season in the "new NHL", and won the division for the first time as well. It's typical Toronto fashion that you claim this isn't working, while your own team wallows in the depths of teams who can't even make the playoffs.

Leafs fans, on the other hand, can look forward to a new coach with completely new strategy, one that is more in keeping with the new NHL. We'll have a new goalie who will follow in the footsteps of Cujo and Belfour. We've got a crop of young forwards who can score goals.

You're right, what do we have to look forward to? We only have the best goaltender in the NHL and one of the best defenses in the NHL. We've acquired Tanguay and will acquire some other forwards to fix our offensive lacking in the process.

Toronto has uncertainty to look forward to. Your new coach won't help much when your GM keeps making dumb decisions (Rask for Raycroft? McCabe for $5.5M?). It's like Toronto is in its own little world, where you guys continue to make the most bizarre decisions and wonder why you miss the playoffs. Next year will be better -- we've heard that for 40 years.

As for Phaneuf, he is not putting up killer offensive stats. His stats only look good when compared to the rest of the anemic Flames. He's not in the top three defencemen for points, unlike McCabe. He's not in the top five, unlike the Leaf's Kaberle. He's not even in the top 10.

Why is it that people in Toronto think that defensemen should be judged primarily on their offensive production?

And yes, Phaneuf is in the top 10 in terms of PPP and is #1 in terms of PPG. PPA is lacking, but as you've noted, this is more a problem with the Flames' offense than it is Phaneuf.

And looking at ppg just shows how far behind Phaneuf is, which is not surprising given that he still wet behind the ears.

Killer stats? More like kiddie stats.

What?

Phaneuf was #1 in the league for defencemen with PPG (16). That's because his shot is better and more accurate than McCabe's.

Only a person who knows nothing about hockey would say he doesn't deserve that salary.

I know nothing about hockey, and you've talked bullocks this whole thread. "Sutter system doesn't work in the new NHL, that's why the Flames had their best regular season ever!"; "Looking at Phaneuf's league-leading in defensemen 16PPG just shows how wet behind the ears he is!" ; etc.

Leafs fans -- most pathetic hockey fans, since 1967.

Side note: It should not be surprising that McCabe and Kaberle have the stats they do, considering they average a league-leading 28 minutes a game vs 20 minutes for Phaneuf. Toronto has zero depth on defense...

[Asher]

Let's look at better indications of defensemen's defensive abilities:

McCabe: -1
Phaneuf: +5

Pronger: 65 hits (saw this stat and laughed)
McCabe: 109 hits [18.9 minutes between each hit]
Phaneuf: 203 hits [8.7 minutes between each hit]

Pronger: 110 giveaways (As I've said, Pronger is overrated)
McCabe: 82 giveaways [25 minutes between each giveaway]
Phaneuf: 51 giveaways [35 minutes between each giveaway]

McCabe: 29 takeaways [71 minutes between each takeaway]
Phaneuf: 35 takeaways [50 minutes between each takeaway]

McCabe: 73 games played (old guy, injuries)
Phaneuf: 82 games played

McCabe is average, at best, as a defenseman. He's got a good shot and he uses it a lot, but considering he's the #1 d-man in Toronto, this is why your defense sucks.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Tingkai
The Leafs have been there, done that. We've had our dynasties and our droughts so we know what it takes to win,

Tell me that was meant to be ironic . . . . or do you think that institutional memory of "how to win" is magically passed to the current Leaf franchise when it seems to have bypassed them for four decades

[Flubber]

Oh and on the Phaneuf -Mccabe debate, while Asher overstates the case, I think you would not find any GM that would give up Phaneuf for McCabe even-up, even if their salaries were equal.

The kid in his rookie year had all the tools. Sure he made some rookie mistakes but he's the real deal and barring injury, a future Norris winner.

McCabe is a successful offensive defensman but one who is pretty much as good as he is going to get.

In a tie game or goal up situation, I prefer to have Phaneuf on the ice over McCabe and goal down its a toss-up. Factor in potential for improvement . . . .