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  • #76
    Originally posted by Asher
    Both are perfect examples of mistakes Sutter made.

    Both are worthless to the team. Hamrlik plays a game and then sits out 20
    Originally posted by Asher

    With little icetime. When he was playing this season, he was still recovering from injury and wasn't playing very well. He's getting paid the 2nd most on the team (second only to Iginla) and is in the 2nd or 3rd defensive pairing on the team...that's how well he was playing.

    Not only is he an example of older players who are more prone to injury, he's an example of an older player whose production is in decline.
    During the season.
    Originally posted by Asher
    Not a chance.

    Calgary's defence -- which was not working tonight aside from Phaneuf and Regehr (we need Hamrlik back), is easily one of the top in the league, if not the top. Their speciality are one-line teams they can shut down with our best D. Montreal would have no chance.
    Which is it?
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    • #77
      We needed Hamrlik back because frickin' Bryan Marchment was playing.

      Hilarious reasoning on your part though -- not wanting people like Cale Hulse and Bryan Marchment playing equals Hamrlik being a shining star worth his 3.5M/season with rising potential?
      "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
      Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

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      • #78
        Originally posted by Asher

        He's obviously a good player, but a lot of that has to do with circumstance -- namely the line he was on. Look at his performance when he wasn't on that top line.

        I also think you'd be crazy to make a big trade for Alfredsson today unless you were giving up equally old players.
        Who says you're making a big trade for him?

        The idea is that you take veterans you believe could excel under the right circumstances, and if you are correct, you get great value.

        Brendan Shanahan is 37 years old. He brought in 81 points for 2.2 million against the cap. If that's not value, I don't know what is.
        "You're the biggest user of hindsight that I've ever known. Your favorite team, in any sport, is the one that just won. If you were a woman, you'd likely be a slut." - Slowwhand, to Imran

        Eschewing silly games since December 4, 2005

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        • #79
          Originally posted by Jaguar
          Who says you're making a big trade for him?
          Err?

          How else would you get Jagr without making a trade...

          Brendan Shanahan is 37 years old. He brought in 81 points for 2.2 million against the cap. If that's not value, I don't know what is.
          You are repeatedly missing the context and the point.

          I am not talking about keeping existing players who are older and doing well. Older players can do well.

          The problem is, I think you'd be stupid now to trade for Shanahan on your team. He's too old. He's in decline.

          When you trade for a young player, chances are they will improve.

          When you trade for an old player, chances are they will decline.

          Hence, younger players are inherently more valuable to the club in general. It is not a radical concept, and listing names of players doing well that are older does nothing to refute it.
          "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
          Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

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          • #80
            Originally posted by Asher

            Err?

            How else would you get Jagr without making a trade...
            You don't trade for him now. You trade for him when nobody else is willing to risk money on a guy who appears to be in decline. You give a random who-dat player like Anson Carter, and you make off like a bandit.

            You can also get great but old players in free agency. Who's willing to sign a 33-year old who may decline soon? Not you, apparently. But the Hurricanes shelled out for Cory Stillman (1.75m against the cap this year). How did that work out for them, by the way?
            "You're the biggest user of hindsight that I've ever known. Your favorite team, in any sport, is the one that just won. If you were a woman, you'd likely be a slut." - Slowwhand, to Imran

            Eschewing silly games since December 4, 2005

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            • #81
              Stillman was -9 in the season on one of the top teams in the league...

              And Stillman wasn't traded to Carolina, so I don't see what your point is at all in bringing him into the discussion?

              Stillman for the 1.75 was a steal, to be sure. That's just being a great GM, regardless of the age.
              "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
              Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

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              • #82
                Originally posted by Asher
                You are repeatedly missing the context and the point.

                I am not talking about keeping existing players who are older and doing well. Older players can do well.

                The problem is, I think you'd be stupid now to trade for Shanahan on your team. He's too old. He's in decline.

                When you trade for a young player, chances are they will improve.

                When you trade for an old player, chances are they will decline.

                Hence, younger players are inherently more valuable to the club in general. It is not a radical concept, and listing names of players doing well that are older does nothing to refute it.
                I agree, but I think you are ignoring the value of some experienced players in bringing the younger ones along.

                The trick is to not give up too much to gain that end. It can be argued that Lowe went too far towards the Toronto model the past twelve months, but it came oh so close to working and the core of the team that he kept got invaluable experience playing with Peca and Pronger and into the 7th game of the finals.

                Would have been fine for the price paid if Pronger had paid off long term, but such is life.
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                • #83
                  Originally posted by Asher
                  Stillman was -9 in the season on one of the top teams in the league...

                  And Stillman wasn't traded to Carolina, so I don't see what your point is at all in bringing him into the discussion?
                  Originally posted by Jaguar
                  You can also get great but old players in free agency.
                  Veteran acquisitions of either type can be excellent value, and you are making gross generalizations.
                  "You're the biggest user of hindsight that I've ever known. Your favorite team, in any sport, is the one that just won. If you were a woman, you'd likely be a slut." - Slowwhand, to Imran

                  Eschewing silly games since December 4, 2005

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                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Jaguar
                    Veteran acquisitions of either type can be excellent value
                    They can, it doesn't mean it's a smart thing to do in general.

                    and you are making gross generalizations.
                    Duh. I've even prefaced many comments with "in general" and "generally" and "usually"...

                    You don't seem to fundamentally understand what's being discussed. I'm talking about trading for old players specifically (giving up something for an old player), and you start listing old players doing well and then start talking about buying undervalued players via UFA.

                    The concept is very simple. A player who is younger and has not yet peaked is likely to be more valuable to the GM of a team than an older player. As I said, I can guarantee you that Sutter would never trade Phaneuf for Pronger, 1:1 like that. A lot of GMs might, hell Kevin Lowe would probably make such a trade these days...Toronto's GM would definitely do it. But I think that's a really, really dumb decision and it screws you out of any real chance of building a solid team.

                    Toronto is guilty of doing this for years on end, and look how it worked out for them.
                    "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
                    Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

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                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Asher
                      You don't seem to fundamentally understand what's being discussed. I'm talking about trading for old players specifically (giving up something for an old player), and you start listing old players doing well and then start talking about buying undervalued players via UFA.

                      The concept is very simple. A player who is younger and has not yet peaked is likely to be more valuable to the GM of a team than an older player. As I said, I can guarantee you that Sutter would never trade Phaneuf for Pronger, 1:1 like that. A lot of GMs might, hell Kevin Lowe would probably make such a trade these days...Toronto's GM would definitely do it. But I think that's a really, really dumb decision and it screws you out of any real chance of building a solid team.

                      Toronto is guilty of doing this for years on end, and look how it worked out for them.
                      And you don't understand the Pronger trade.

                      Lowe made off like a bandit. It was almost a gift. St. Louis needed to shed salary. Lowe sent a journeyman, a rookie, and a junior d. None of them were Phaneufs. And it was conditional on Pronger signing a contract that the Oilers could afford to pay.

                      It was a sweet, sweet deal for the Oilers.

                      It will cost another team more.
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                      • #86
                        Sometimes you can get a robbery like that, but it isn't all fun and games. His contract is actually brutal. Long-term contracts are a huge risk for people over 30.
                        "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
                        Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

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                        • #87
                          You go on and on about the magic number of '30'. You have stats on injuries to NHL players to back that up?

                          Oh, and you can buy insurance for these things.
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                          • #88
                            dp
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                            • #89
                              I'm not aware of any stats on it. All I've got is the general understanding that after playing hockey all your life, by the time you're over 30 your body doesn't take the beating as well as it once did...and the heaps of anecdotal evidence of old players getting injured frequently.

                              Hell, on Calgary all of the old D-men were rotating out on an injury basis: Marchment, Hulse, Hamrlik, etc. The young ones played a lot more.
                              "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
                              Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

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                              • #90
                                In other words, all you have is your opinion. That's fine, but not entirely convincing.
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