Astronauts vs Cavemen. Who wins?

[Al B. Sure!]

KH:

Especially when you consider that men who were raised in households better off than average were probably fed a much richer diet, leading to an overclass significantly taller than the truly destitute.

yeah but legionarries weren't exactly a patrician corps... they came from the underclass as much as anything. especially after Marius.

[KrazyHorse]

And what do you think happened to standards as the wealthy and "middle class" began to snub military service?

[KrazyHorse]

Fast forward two thousand years, and the men serving under Wellington are "the scum of the earth"...

[Al B. Sure!]

KH:

I was under the impression we were talking late Republican and Imperial Rome with the 5'10" requirement... the poor plebians were by then being welcomed into the army by Marius and his sucessors. are you saying that you think the 5'10" requirement was a relic from the Punic wars and was being ignored as a result of Marius? as early as Marius?

[KrazyHorse]

First off, I don't think that the 5'10 requirement was ever strictly adhered to. Secondly, I think that as time went on and the legions became more professional and began to recruit from lower rungs of society the height requirement, along with all other requirements began to fade away.

[Al B. Sure!]

KH:

in nearly every history book of the period that i have read, the Celts and Germans are prefaced by "tall". Britannica describes Celts as "tall, fair-skinned". It's all relative but there has to be something to this... it's the old association of Nordic with tallness.

perhaps the ancient Celts and Germans (who were actually newcomers to western Europe in roman times, especially the Germans) were actually much taller than the pre-Celtic inhabitants of Western Europe but this height wouldn't have shown up by the study i posted measuring remains indiscriminately of Celtic or pre-Celtic racial heritage nor would this height have lasted for long, what with the eventually assimiliation and Romanization of Celts.

I'm starting to suspect an invasion around 800 BC of a tall (likely over 6 foot as roman historians claimed) class of Celts, predominately warriors, who went on to fight the Romans. The peoples of Gaul and Spain might have been 5'6" but these Celtic warriors were not inaccurately described by Romans as 6'+

A few centuries later the Germans might have gone on to do the same thing and tall German warriors conquered shorter peoples and then fought Romans who were amazed by their height.

that would explain this consistant association of tallness with German and Celtic that i've always encountered in history books.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Albert Speer
KH:

in nearly every history book of the period that i have read, the Celts and Germans are prefaced by "tall". Britannica describes Celts as "tall, fair-skinned". It's all relative but there has to be something to this... it's the old association of Nordic with tallness.

Not arguing with you here. I don't doubt that Celts and Germans averaged taller than Mediterraneans during that period.

I'm starting to suspect an invasion around 800 BC of a tall (likely over 6 foot as roman historians claimed) class of Celts, predominately warriors, who went on to fight the Romans. The peoples of Gaul and Spain might have been 5'6" but these Celtic warriors were not inaccurately described by Romans as 6'+

Bull****. Bull. ****. Just a bunch of wild speculation based on an historical account infamous for its exaggerations.

[KrazyHorse]

By the way, the peoples of Spain and France were Celtic at the time.

[Al B. Sure!]

KH:

from wikipedia:



"The green area suggests a possible extent of (proto-)Celtic influence around 1000 BC. The orange area shows the region of birth of the La Tène style. The red area indicates an idea of the possible region of Celtic influence around 400 BC."

also:

"The spread of the Celtic languages to Britain and to Iberia would have occurred during the first half of the 1st millennium, the earliest chariot burials in Britain dating to ca. 500 BC. "

[KrazyHorse]

Errr....that's what I said. By the time the Romans invaded Iberia it was Celtic.

[Al B. Sure!]

KH:

I don't see why it even is speculative... in fact, I recall reading something to this effect in one of Brian Fagan's books (he was linking the sudden build up of fortifications throughout western europe with a celtic invasion around 1000 BC-700 BC due to climate concerns). I just made up the height difference between the invaders but it isn't outside of the realm of reason. Relatively small groups of warrior peoples (such as the Aryans in India, the Germans later, the Slavs even later, and the Normans/Vikings even later in Europe, the Arabs in the middle east, etc.) have been known to conquer vast areas and exist for some time as a seperate aristocracy, likely inbreeding and retaining their racial traits for some time. I don't see how a militaristic society like ancient Celtic society wouldn't have been capable of such things.

[Al B. Sure!]

KH:

I know... the peoples of Spain and France were Celtic by the time the Romans first encountered Celts... but it is conceivable that they might have kept to themselves a bit and were taller than the pre-celtic inhabitants.

[KrazyHorse]

I just made up the height difference between the invaders

That's the part that's speculative.

but it isn't outside of the realm of reason

Yes, it is.

I like how it started out with them being 6'2 on average, then it went to 6'. Soon it'll be 5'10 and no longer laughable. All without you ever admitting a retreat

[Al B. Sure!]

KH:

If the Franks remained distinct from the Romano-Gauls... if the Anglo-Saxons remained distinct from the Romano-Britons... if the Vandals and Visigoths remained distinct from the Celtiberians and Berbers... if the Rus Vikings remained distinct from the Slavs...

i don't see why you can't see the Celts lasting just a few centuries as a seperate ruling aristocracy of primarily tall individuals. Medieval lords tended to be taller than their subjects through a similar process. Charlemagne's successors (perhaps all the way to the French Revolution) were taller than the average Romano-Gaul because they were genetically Frankish and taller.

that finding of especially tall people in the 6th century could be explained by this. With the collapse of the Empire and the following dark ages, populations declined while the influx of taller Germans, Slavs, and Turkic peoples into Europe led to greater average heights.

and before you say diet caused medieval lords to be taller... they all ate the same basic malnourishing crap of porridge and bread and they were all suspect to the same pressures of famine, ESPECIALLY in the 6th-11th centuries.

[Al B. Sure!]

I like how it started out with them being 6'2 on average, then it went to 6'. Soon it'll be 5'10 and no longer laughable. All without you ever admitting a retreat

All i ever claimed was that Roman historians such as Tacitus said Celtic and German warriors were a few inches taller than Roman soldiers. I then added those few inches onto the minimum legionarry height of 5'10" (the only height i was sure of) to get 6'2".

but if exceptions were made as much as they seem to have been made, then bringing the average legionarry's height down to 5'8" would bring the average Celtic down to 6'.

No retreat. just a slight change in my point of reference: the height of a roman soldier.