Astronauts vs Cavemen. Who wins?

[Al B. Sure!]

and besides, my point (a very small one at that) was just that pre-modern agricultural societies did not uniformly result in shorter people. If Romans and Celts were comparable in height to moderns, then it would prove an exception to the 'rule' that agriculture lead to a decline in heights and in physical strength.

[KrazyHorse]

The Celts of the time were pastoralists, not mainly agriculturalists. There's a big difference.

[Al B. Sure!]

big difference? not so much in terms of staving off malnutrition. The Celts were cattle herders who, like most cattle herding people, probably rarely ate beef (cattle were a sign of wealth) but lived off milk and off the land. Pastoralists therefore probably didn't have much better of a diet than farmers did, a bit more protein but that was it.

And they were just as susceptible to famine as the farmers, especially as the Celts were fairly settled for pastoralists, hence their numerous palisaded settlements throughout Western Europe. Cattle do possess a digestive system efficient at extracting nutrients out of their food but you go too long without adequete rain and the grasses are quick to dry out and leave nothing for the lumbering bovines.

besides, a different economic means than the pre-Celtic inhabitants only makes my point of Celtic distinction from the earlier inhabitants more reasonable. The Celtic herding aristocracy didn't mingle much with the farmers.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Albert Speer
big difference? not so much in terms of staving off malnutrition. The Celts were cattle herders who, like most cattle herding people, probably rarely ate beef (cattle were a sign of wealth) but lived off milk and off the land. Pastoralists therefore probably didn't have much better of a diet than farmers did, a bit more protein but that was it.

You don't have a clue, Albert. As usual.

[Al B. Sure!]

KH:

Excuse me? Yes, Bantu herdsmen regularily slaughter cattle en masse and have feasts during the dry years in the Sahel! Yes, Bedouin nomads feast on camel flesh all day!

cattle herders have been known to subsist primarily on milk (often milk mixed with cattle blood) and cull animals fairly rarely.

[KrazyHorse]

That's not the part where you went horribly wrong.

[Al B. Sure!]

KH:

what? you think the pastoralist diet is significantly nutritionally superior to the agricultuist diet? In Iron Age Europe?

you do realize that Europe was still incredibly well-forested and still teaming with deer, boar, rabbits, and aurochs (yes, don't forget one species of megafauna remained in Europe). Farmers in Western Europe had a far more diverse diet than their counterparts in the middle east. Add in acorns and the European agricultural diet was probably as nutritionally strong as the pastoralist one.

and of course, cattle were just as susceptible to drought as wheatfields. you could always move but the Celts were pretty settled for pastoralists.

[kittenOFchaos]

Originally posted by VetLegion


It's common knowledge that 16th century Europeans were short, underfed weaklings compared to modern man. The average height today is probably 15 cm higher than that in medieval times. Don't know about weight, but I'd say the difference is even more drastic

And you want to seriousely claim that those people were some sort of fighting machines whose weapons we can today barely pick up, let alone use? Get serious.

BTW., the really large two handed swords were too heavy for combat and were used almost exclusively for duels and tournaments.

One thing to consider is that the nobility would be significantly healthier, stronger and fitter than the serfs/dirtscratchers.

They won't have destroyed their physique by poor diet, hard labour and conditions. Add to that they'll have been well schooled in martial arts from a relatively young age, so those chaps would be well able to handle themselves.

Henry VIII would own ya all


P.S My money is on the Caveman if he can be persuaded to fight.

[yin26]

O.K. Changing my vote: The caveman IF we first rub Roast Duck with Mango Salsa all over the astronaughts first.

[kittenOFchaos]

Originally posted by yin26
O.K. Changing my vote: The caveman IF we first rub Roast Duck with Mango Salsa all over the astronaughts first.

I'll change my vote to the Astronaut if that Astronaut is Chuck Norris

[Straybow]

I'd have to go with cavemen. If they are anything like the Great Lakes or Plains tribes they would have a significant warrior tradition.

They would likely fight first and ask questions while they torture the ones they capture.


But I agree, teh Chuck Norris pwns teh mango-salsa cavemen.

[Straybow]

Originally posted by Thorgal
This remembers me of a recent visit i made to an ancient castle-museum. Have you ever seen a real armor or an claymore of the XV or XVI century?

... 6,5 kg...

A sword that heavy is an extreme example, and manifestly unwieldy. Yet it doesn't require extreme physical size or strength. More typical claymore or longswords were 4-6 lbs (see Wallace Sword and here). Modern combat replicas tend to be heavier than museum examples because the manufacturers have less confidence and fear product liability if broken.

I'm only 5'7" 136lb (170cm 62kg SI). I routinely use a chainsaw that is 3kg empty, 4kg if full of gas and chain oil. I also use a heavier one 5-6kg. It makes my lower back ache and gets my muscles burning after 15-20 minutes. I have used a heavier one, but only for vertical cuts in large logs already on the ground.

I have also trained in medieval martial arts. I've wielded two-handers of differing weights but not blade on blade (they were sharps). I have used rebated one-handed replicas in practice, and compared them to a 17th century sword and a top quality custom sharp.

The genuine and the custom blades were marvelously light and quick, potentially quicker than the ratan sticks we usually spar with due to superb balance. The kind of rebated swords widely available are a full pound heavier, or more. I'm hoping to get my hands on a custom blunt.

I also have an acquaintance who does the crazy blunt steel and full armor fighting, and I hope to get to England to try it myself. Here is Adrian in a picture he calls Spot The Mistake (he is the one about to get whacked on the noggin).

[Sikander]

Interesting stuff.

[Vince278]

Originally posted by yin26
The problem is, by the time the cavemen have waited around long enough to fight, they've gone soft. The guy on the left orders the roast duck with mango salsa, I believe.

He was p*ssed, not soft. The joke there is that he ordered the most expensive thing on the menu.

[yin26]

Naw, he's soft. Look at the clothes. Cream puff. And roast duck with mango salsa just screams "Hate Me!"