Iraq's My Lai

[Gatekeeper]

If it's verified, SlowwHand, that our Marines went into those homes and killed *women* and *children,* there is no way in God's green earth you can defend that, even with your questionable logic. Period.

And if it's proven those Marines deliberately killed those civilians, it will make Abu Ghraib look like child's play in terms of reaction among the general population in Iraq.

I hope to God none of it's true, because if it is, it's going to give a big boost to at least one wing of the insurgency — the nationalists, and — depending on the religion/ethnicity of those killed — possibly the Sunnis and Shiites as well. Know what's really bad? The Shiites aren't particularly involved in the insurgency right now, except for their anti-Sunni death squads. But if they were to turn their firepower on U.S. troops ... well, nothing good can come out of that. Nothing whatsoever.

Gatekeeper

[Dinner]

These Marines were stationed in San Diego's North County. I doubt many of them were from here but their units home base was near Oceanside at the San Diego-Orange County border.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
Before anyone spouts theories, it might be relevant to their case, and viewpoint, to have a frame of reference.

Easy to sit and swill beer in an air conditioned house somewhere, and shake your head.

I think I have earned the right to comment.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Geronimo
The hardest thing for me is the way that this is like seeing a cockroach in a house. How can I tell if this is an isolated atrocity or if there are perhaps dozens of rogue US military units out there indulging in murder at their whim? What if these guys were just the sloppiest at providing cover for their crimes?

There are a million different media organizations in Iraq now and numerious local villagers living in mud brick houses with tin sheet roofs have Sony Handy Cams. That's globalization and the fact remains that when ever someone so much as farts the odds are it is on camera. There are no vast conspiracies and even Shrub can't keep his secrets secret.

That's also globalization.

[Dinner]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Iraq's My Lai

Originally posted by Kidicious
I think you took what I said the wrong way. I'm not ashamed, because I don't consider myself one of those people.

I agree that where you live sucks, Fres-hole is about as close to an anus as California has (well, maybe Bakersfield or Barstow beats it but Fresno is close), but it is still in the US. Face it as much as you think you'd like to run away you'd still be an outsider where ever you went. The US isn't so bad.

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by Oerdin


There are a million different media organizations in Iraq now and numerious local villagers living in mud brick houses with tin sheet roofs have Sony Handy Cams. That's globalization and the fact remains that when ever someone so much as farts the odds are it is on camera. There are no vast conspiracies and even Shrub can't keep his secrets secret.

That's also globalization.

i was worried about the exact opposite of a conspiracy. multiple totally unaffiliated units getting away with murder simply because they are good at inventing excuses and covering their tracks. Your post does set my mind a bit more at ease in asmuch as it suggests such crimes would not go undetected for long.

[Agathon]

This is normal in this sort of war.

There were countless "My Lais" in Vietnam. Part of the guerilla strategy is to goad the occupiers into doing things like this in order to turn the population against them.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by SlowwHand


Absolutely. They can pass by unidentifed people and kill innocent people. They make mistakes almost daily in that regard.

fixed



Not only that, but there now might be one instance where U.S. Marines have deliberately killed innocent civilians.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Agathon
This is normal in this sort of war.

There were countless "My Lais" in Vietnam. Part of the guerilla strategy is to goad the occupiers into doing things like this in order to turn the population against them.

Quite right. And it works. Actually, this was my greatest fear about Iraq. In a war of this sort, the enemy blends with the civilian population, making it seem to the US troops that everyone is the enemy.

In 'Nam, anyone approaching a US position was considered hostile, even if they were female or young.

This is why I thought the original plan to use the Iraqi Army to police the nation was the right one. Unfortunately, the Defense Department was overruled by Bremer who worked for State. Blair, in the recent newsconference, identified this as the one mistake the US and Britain made.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Ned


Depends on whether the Dems gain power and cut and run.

You realize that it was the GOP that cut and run in Vietnam, right?

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Oerdin
There are a million different media organizations in Iraq now and numerious local villagers living in mud brick houses with tin sheet roofs have Sony Handy Cams.

Except our cowardly media is frequently too scared to touch it. Until Murtha said anything, you heard nary a peep about this in the "anti-American" MSM.

[Victor Galis]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


You realize that it was the GOP that cut and run in Vietnam, right?

But in either case it would be a pull-out after the opposition sweeps out an incumbent party that is deeply unpopular because of the war.

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


You realize that it was the GOP that cut and run in Vietnam, right?

Nixon cut and run with vietnamization and promises of future support if the north were ever to launch a sustained invasion that would threaten the existance of Vietnam. This still counts as "cut and run" but with a fig leaf.

The dems "cut and run" involved refusing to honor those commitments when the north did in fact invade.

I'm not sure it was truly a bad idea to cut and run in either case.

What harm has come to the US for it? It may have done some good in that client states now realise the US can't offer unconditional support. To guarentee that support they have to earn and keep the sympathies of the overwhelming majority of the US public.

[Chemical Ollie]

Haven't events like this happened since day one of the invasion? It's only the political climate of the US media that has changed, and now it's reported and debated.

[Victor Galis]

Originally posted by Chemical Ollie
Haven't events like this happened since day one of the invasion? It's only the political climate of the US media that has changed, and now it's reported and debated.

Not quite. There have been lots of incidents where US troops screwed up and killed innocents. This is really sounding like they were pissed and just killed random Iraqis who just happened to be there when they were pissed. This is infinitely worse than accidentally shooting someone that insurgents were using as a human shield, accidentally shooting someone that was acting suspicious (like speeding towards your checkpoint), etc. To be fair to the media, I heard about this a month or two ago from somewhere in the mainstream US media, but the investigation wasn't as far along, so they had refrained from making too big a deal about it. As I've said previously, accidental shootings are not that uncommon. If this was a deliberate massacre... wow...

What I really want to know though is: How many people in the last few years, and how does this compare to the post-2003 death toll? I'm not going to claim Saddam wasn't an evil bastard, but it really does seem that Bush found a way to take a pretty bad situation and turn it into something even worse.