Iraq's My Lai

[Zkribbler]

Originally posted by Ned


Yes you can. The Brits did it several times.

And, to some extent, we successfully withdrew from South Vietnam. That success was then tossed when a Democrat Congress betrayed the South Vietnamese.

...following the wishes of the great majority of the American people.

The problems with democracies is that sometimes the majority disagrees with you.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Geronimo


Nixon cut and run with vietnamization and promises of future support if the north were ever to launch a sustained invasion that would threaten the existance of Vietnam. This still counts as "cut and run" but with a fig leaf.

The dems "cut and run" involved refusing to honor those commitments when the north did in fact invade.

I'm not sure it was truly a bad idea to cut and run in either case.

What harm has come to the US for it? It may have done some good in that client states now realise the US can't offer unconditional support. To guarentee that support they have to earn and keep the sympathies of the overwhelming majority of the US public.

We made specific commitments to the South in order to induce them to sign the peace accords. Then we betrayed them.

Who betrayed them?

The Democrat Congress, of course.

But historians today acknowledge a simple fact. Had Nixon still been president, we would have honored our commitments. Watergate killed Nixon and indirectly killed South Vietnam.

But Ford, the mental "giant", was president and did not have the balls (or the mental acuity) to do what was necessary. Nixon's second greatest mistake, besided the Watergate coverup, was appointing this weakling as VP.

[Zkribbler]

If American troops have been ordered back into Vietnam, riots would have torn this country apart and the President who gave the order would have probably been impeached.

You can blame the Democratic Congress.

You can blame the cynical and disaffected American people

You can blame the Vietnamese leadership for responding to our demand for democratic reforms by installing a Thieu-party system.

You can blame the Vietnamese people for not seeing that a Western alliance is better than a communist dictatorship.

But that's the way it was.

[DinoDoc]

This tangent kind of begs the question of how popular the anti-war movement at the time was. Anyone got a poll from the relevent time?

[Zkribbler]

Haven't been able to find one, and I have to go now.

The N.V.A. invaded in Jan. 75. In a March 21, 1975 news conference, President Ford referred to a recent Harris Poll which said the American people would not stand for military intervention.

However, Ford didn't say what the numbers were & I haven't been able to get my hands on that poll. I went to the Harris Polls website, but I didn't see any historical archive.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Zkribbler
If American troops have been ordered back into Vietnam, riots would have torn this country apart and the President who gave the order would have probably been impeached.

But in the Nedaverse, the guns should have been turned on the people so they could get in line

[Victor Galis]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui


But in the Nedaverse, the guns should have been turned on the people so they could get in line

Fully justified of course, because they were clearly Viet Cong sympathisers.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Zkribbler
However, Ford didn't say what the numbers were & I haven't been able to get my hands on that poll. I went to the Harris Polls website, but I didn't see any historical archive.

It's alright. I can't find anything myself. My googlefu isn't up to the level I'd like it.

[Straybow]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Because they, as Marines, represent America where they are.

So, what these Marines did represents America, but how we pursue justice in this case does not sufficiently represent America?

Sorry, if they look only at the few who do wrong and not at the fact that the American government and public universally condemns such actions, I don't care what the buggers think.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
This tangent kind of begs the question of how popular the anti-war movement at the time was. Anyone got a poll from the relevent time?

A serious majority were against the war, including the most important base of both parties, business leaders (the war was hurting the economy). The anti-war movement itself wasn't all that popular, being seen then, and still today, as a bunch of self-indulgent kids who protested for the sake of protesting. The ignores that the anti-war movement was made of of disparate groups ranging from Vietnam Vets themselves, students, religious types (like MLK), Black unionists, etc.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
A serious majority were against the war,...

Anyone got a poll from the relevent time?

[Sprayber]

The true judge of how America is will be how we handle those that are responsible for this. America is like all other countries in that we have both good and bad people. The US military is no exception. It attracts both the best and worst of our society. If the allegations are true than it is truely tragic and those that are found to be responsible should be dealt with by the full force of the law. The military would be best off to deal with this as openly as possible, let's hope that they do..

[SlowwHand]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove


Lt. Calley got a mere 2 years for ordering the slaughter of ~ 100+ civilians at My Lai, and he didn't even serve the full sentence. AFAIK he was not mistreated in prison.

Calley got screwed. Time was jack. Dishonorable discharge most certainly was the punishment. Why him, and not the one that ordered him? Was it Benteen? I can't remember.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Zkribbler
If American troops have been ordered back into Vietnam, riots would have torn this country apart and the President who gave the order would have probably been impeached.

The issue wasn't withholding of troops, it was withholding of needed, and promised, military aid (munitions, fuel, and supplies).

Or am I wrong?

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
Calley got screwed. Time was jack. Dishonorable discharge most certainly was the punishment. Why him, and not the one that ordered him? Was it Benteen? I can't remember.

DD is not an acceptable punishment for murder, however, I do agree Calley got screwed, especially as no one else got charged, including the bastards who actually engaged in the killing. Calley himself, IIRC, didn't so much order the killings as didn't try to stop it. Meanwhile the command staff in the air knew what was happening and didn't do anything either.

I expect, though, that this time, murder charges will be filed.