Iraq's My Lai

[Imran Siddiqui]

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/05/26/marines.probe.ap/index.html

Official: Evidence points to unjustified killings by Marines
About 2 dozen Iraqi civilians killed in November

Friday, May 26, 2006; Posted: 2:24 p.m. EDT (18:24 GMT)

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Investigators believe that their criminal investigation into the deaths of about two dozen Iraqi civilians points toward a conclusion that Marines committed unprovoked murders, a senior defense official said Friday.

The Marine Corps initially reported that the deaths were caused by a roadside bomb and ensuing firefight with insurgents.

The official, who discussed the matter on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to discuss the yet-to-be-completed investigation, said the evidence strongly indicates the killings last November were unjustified.

According to a congressional aide, lawmakers were told in a briefing Thursday that it appears as many as two dozen civilians were killed. And they were told that the investigation will find that "it will be clear that this was not the result of an accident or a normal combat situation."

Another congressional official said lawmakers were told it would be about 30 days before a report would be issued by the investigating agency, the Naval Criminal Investigative Service.

This shames me as an American.

[Arrian]

While it certainly sounds bad, Imran, I'd wait until the investigation is complete and the full facts are known before coming to a conclusion.

edit: though I doubt the conclusion will be pride in the Marines here, based on this story.

-Arrian

[Imran Siddiqui]

Perhaps, but it seems the conclusion was that it was unjustified and wasn't a result of accident or normal combat situations. The only thing left, it seems to me, is a massacre, since the Marines aren't denying they killed these people, they are just saying it was an accident (crossfire).

[Zkribbler]

This grim news here is more than just the loss of life.

This is a necessary step if the insurgents are going to win. They have to induce our troops into believing the Iraqi people are the enemy, which -- worse case scenario -- is what appears to have happened here.

[Cyclotron]

This is, if true, very unfortunate. It does not, however, strike me as very unusual - as we saw in Abu Ghraib, people put in positions of power in stressful situations and taught to dehumanize the enemy do not always act in the most humane ways.

Zkribbler is absolutely right; such actions (along with, IMO, the invasion itself in the first place) only aid the people we are trying to oppose. I hope the damage we have caused here does not result in more Iraqi and American deaths, but I am not hopeful in that regard.

[Wezil]

The Marine Corps initially reported that the deaths were caused by a roadside bomb and ensuing firefight with insurgents.

Very nice. I thought honor was part of the Marine Code...

[MRT144]

vesayan would approve of it regardless

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by Arrian
While it certainly sounds bad, Imran, I'd wait until the investigation is complete and the full facts are known before coming to a conclusion.



-Arrian

True. And for this same reason alone Murtha is a huge dick.

[Pekka]

I don't know what is so suprirising with this. It's war. People have been there for some years now. It's pretty obvious murders happen, and that's excluding shootings where it was a borderline case and only innocents got blasted.

Yeah, this is what insurgents needs, but I don't think they even need it anymore. They aren't running a PR campagn of good guys. I'd say it's at least a tie or they are winning already. They haven't been controlled, most of the country is no mans land, and no mans land is always insurgents land. It seems that we care only about few cities, and even those aren't controlled at night.

But you know, is that a surprise, how can you control such a big country with so few troops? It's impossible, unless they go down and submit, something they haven't yet done.

So I argue this won't have a big impact, except maybe in the US. But it's just ordinary violence in war really. I don't condone it, that's not the point. The point is, who is assuming soldiers are not doing this, it's just a statistical fact when you have that many people, things will go down.

What they should do is what they're doing. Investigate when these come up, throw them into prisons. Murder is still murder, even if it seems a joke in state of war.

I don't think things in this regard has been handled badly in any way, except the fact that the press gets a field day, someone is in charge for not letting these things go public so that person ****ed up again.

[BlackCat]

One thing is that you can't figure out how to train your soldiers not to do such things - that for certain is a thing to be handled.

Besides this simple point, there are actually one positive point in this history that may make the iraquis better - those who did it is being persecuted - they are not accustomed to that.

[Pekka]

not accustomed to that? What is that, some racist **** you claim with a serious face or trolling?

[Imran Siddiqui]

Great detailed article:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/05/26/marines.haditha/index.html

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- An ongoing military investigation supports allegations that U.S. Marines in November killed 24 innocent Iraqi civilians without being provoked, senior Pentagon sources said Friday.

Charges, including murder, could soon be filed against Marines allegedly involved, the sources said.

The killings reportedly occurred while troops from the 3rd Battalion, 1st Marines were searching for insurgents who planted a roadside bomb that killed a member of the unit.

The Marines originally had reported that 15 civilians were killed by a roadside bomb in Haditha, a city along the Euphrates River in western Iraq. The Marines later suggested the civilians may have been caught in a firefight.

However, photographs being reviewed by investigators "are inconsistent with how the Marines claim the Iraqis died," according to a military source familiar with the investigation.

An Iraqi human rights group, Hammurabi Human Rights Association, caught the scene on video, which was obtained by Time magazine. A criminal investigation ensued. Time Warner is the parent company of Time magazine and CNN.

Last week, Rep. John Murtha, D-Pennsylvania, a decorated retired Marine colonel who is opposed to the war in Iraq, said the investigation of the Haditha deaths would show that the civilian toll was higher than 15 and that the Marines killed them "in cold blood." He said he received his information from U.S. commanders.

"There was no firefight. There was no IED that killed these innocent people. Our troops overreacted because of the pressure on them, and they killed innocent civilians in cold blood," Murtha said. "They actually went into the houses and killed women and children."

The Marine battalion commander and two company commanders have been relieved of their commands and reassigned to staff posts at Camp Pendleton, California.

Separate accusations surfaced earlier this month that Marines from the 3rd Battalion, 5th Marine Regiment killed a civilian near Hamandiya, west of Baghdad, on April 26.

Several Marines from the regiment were sent back to the United States, and Maj. Gen. Richard Zilmer, commander of 1st Marines Expeditionary Force, asked that the Naval Criminal Investigative Service look into allegations made by Iraqis to Marine commanders at a May 1 meeting.

Sen. John Warner, R-Virginia, said Thursday that he would rank both incidents as "very, very serious allegations." There is no timeline set for either investigation, but he expects both to be completed quickly, said Warner, who chairs the Senate Armed Forces Committee.

The two incidents prompted Gen. Michael Hagee, commandant of the Marine Corps, to fly to Iraq on Thursday and speak to Marines about the use of force in a speech titled "On Marine Virtue."

"We do not employ force just for the sake of employing force. We use lethal force only when justified, proportional and, most importantly, lawful," Hagee said, according to a copy of his speech released by the Marine Corps. "This is the American way of war. We must regulate force and violence, we only damage property that must be damaged and we protect the non-combatants we find on the battlefield."

[SlowwHand]

I'd have more compassion in both cases if could tell the opponent; and in both cases cited, it's impossible.

Unfortunate that the burden is put on military members. Pass them by, chances are they blow you up.

[Geronimo]

The hardest thing for me is the way that this is like seeing a cockroach in a house. How can I tell if this is an isolated atrocity or if there are perhaps dozens of rogue US military units out there indulging in murder at their whim? What if these guys were just the sloppiest at providing cover for their crimes?

Even if there is just one other undisciplined unit out there successfully concealing such crimes from investigators I could not stomach that.

It's past time to start the troop withdrawl. If the existing enforcement of discipline can't prevent the most extremely sloppy atrocities much less detect them in a timely manner then the troop presence can't be relied on to do it's job.

If consent for the troop withdrawl can't be obtained from the new Iraqi government then we should see if it might be possible to rotate iraqi observers through our units or find some other plan to make getting away with these sorts of crimes impossible.

[SlowwHand]

Before anyone spouts theories, it might be relevant to their case, and viewpoint, to have a frame of reference.

Easy to sit and swill beer in an air conditioned house somewhere, and shake your head.