A new Cold War started in Vilnius

[GePap]

Originally posted by BlackCat


Are you serious ? I can count five : mongols, swedes, french and 2 x germans. That is very few compared to the average number other european countries has been invaded.

Edit : dammit , I forgot that the evil finns also have done it.

Obviuouly you guys either don;t know much Russian history, or your definition of invasions are different from the common usage.

[Sandman]

Originally posted by Ecthy
Also, a cold war isn't started by hurt emotions, but by a competition in security aspects. As was mentioned earlier, Russia just isn't strong enough.

Funny to see how today people talk of the danger of Russia leaning toward "China's arms", not the other way around as it would have been 50 years ago

How many times was Russia invaded? 1610 from Poland, 1812 from France, 1914 and 1941 from Germany. 4 times in 400 years isn't that much.

Don't forget the invasions by the allies during the Russian Revolution.

And it is funny about Russia being driven into China's arms. I would have thought the Russians would be little bit miffed at this.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Gangerolf
Russia has invaded other countries more often than other countries have invaded Russia.

Common behavior for the victimized to become victimizers.

Sad but common pathology.

[DanS]

Here's the relevant portions of the speech...

America and all of Europe also want to see Russia in the category of healthy, vibrant democracies. Yet in Russia today, opponents of reform are seeking to reverse the gains of the last decade. In many areas of civil society -- from religion and the news media, to advocacy groups and political parties -- the government has unfairly and improperly restricted the rights of her people. Other actions by the Russian government have been counterproductive, and could begin to affect relations with other countries. No legitimate interest is served when oil and gas become tools of intimidation or blackmail, either by supply manipulation or attempts to monopolize transportation. And no one can justify actions that undermine the territorial integrity of a neighbor, or interfere with democratic movements.

Russia has a choice to make. And there is no question that a return to democratic reform in Russia will generate further success for its people and greater respect among fellow nations. Democratization in Russia helped to end the Cold War, and the Russian people have made heroic progress in overcoming the miseries of the 20th century. They deserve now to live out their peaceful aspirations under a government that upholds freedom at home, and builds good relations abroad.

None of us believes that Russia is fated to become an enemy. A Russia that increasingly shares the values of this community can be a strategic partner and a trusted friend as we work toward common goals. In that spirit, the leading industrialized nations will engage Russia at the Group of Eight Summit in St. Petersburg this summer. We will make the case, clearly and confidently, that Russia has nothing to fear and everything to gain from having strong, stable democracies on its borders, and that by aligning with the West, Russia joins all of us on a course to prosperity and greatness. The vision we affirm today is of a community of sovereign democracies that transcend old grievances, that honor the many links of culture and history among us, that trade in freedom, respect each other as great nations, and strive together for a century of peace.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/05/20060504-1.html

[Colonâ„¢]

Originally posted by GePap


Since Belgium has existed as a country dseperate from some other identity, you have been invade what? Twice?

If the Russians have the right to remember the sacking of Moscow by Poland-Lithuania in 1612, then we sure as hell have the right to remember the sacking of Antwerp in 1576.

Besides, Russia has only been independent for 15 years.

[Colonâ„¢]

Originally posted by DanS
Colon: I think it's a little different this time. The US press carried it on its front pages, for instance. It was meant to be an important speech, and apparently it was received as an important speech.

And what does mean concretely?

[GePap]

Originally posted by Colonâ„¢


If the Russians have the right to remember the sacking of Moscow by Poland-Lithuania in 1612, the we sure as hell have the right to remember the sacking of Antwerp in 1576.

Sure you can, but then, there were no such things as Belgians back in 1576.

Besides, Russia has only been independent for 15 years.

[DanS]

Originally posted by Colonâ„¢
And what does mean concretely?

Tough to say. Perhaps different things to different people. The Ukrainians and Georgians took it as a cue to exit the CIS and an invitation to work toward NATO and EU membership.

[GePap]

The US prtess covered it because the Russians got pissed. Press loves controversy.

As for the Ukranians, IIRC the more pro-Russia party just wom the biggest share of votes.

[DanS]

The US press covered it well before the Russians had a chance to respond. It was on the front page of the Washington Post. Above the fold with a healthy-sized headline, IIRC.

[GePap]

Originally posted by DanS
The US press covered it well before the Russians had a chance to respond. It was on the front page of the Washington Post. Above the fold with a healthy-sized headline, IIRC.

There are these new technologies known as Television, radio, and telephones, that allow individuals to comment on something before the written press gets to it. If you honestly think Russian media and Russian government officials had no ability to repond to speech before the US written press had a chance to do it, then you are smoking something very strong.

[Colonâ„¢]

Originally posted by GePap


Sure you can, but then, there were no such things as Belgians back in 1576.

There is still no such thing as a Belgian 'ethnic' today. We have direct cultural, linguistic and ethnic links with the peoples who lived in the Low Lands back then, hence it'd be ridiculous to claim it's not part of our heritage. It's as if you'd claim that the Italians can't consider the renaissance city-states to be part of their heritage.

[Colonâ„¢]

Originally posted by DanS


Tough to say. Perhaps different things to different people. The Ukrainians and Georgians took it as a cue to exit the CIS and an invitation to work toward NATO and EU membership.

That wouldn't really amount to a watershed IMO, as the CIS already is an empty box.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Colonâ„¢


There is still no such thing as a Belgian 'ethnic' today. We have direct cultural, linguistic and ethnic links with the peoples who lived in the Low Lands back then, hence it'd be ridiculous to claim it's not part of our heritage. It's as if you'd claim that the Italians can't consider the renaissance city-states to be part of their heritage.

Heritage =/ identity.

Russian identity is one of being victimized by neighbors all aorund them. I doubt that is what Belgian identity is about.

[DanS]

The CIS is an empty box because the Russians have been taking all the goodies from the box. Meanwhile, the NATO and EU boxes are chock full of goodies.

It seems significant to me that this has been recognized on Cheney's cue at Vilnius. It seems to me that Vilnius was a significant conference.