Women and the draft

[MRT144]

what the hell!? this is the first time ive heard pbs and right wing used in conjunction

[KrazyHorse]

Uh...that second post you put up consists of refutations of strawmen and fuzzy thinking.



If that's the best you can do, then you've already lost.

[KrazyHorse]

Why the hell did you cite that as a "source"?

It's a mass of fairly meaningless opinions, not a ****ing piece of evidence for a factual claim.

[Dis]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse

but in long term endurance I have not noticed much of any difference between men and women in similar shape

~15% speed difference over all ranges (both endurance and sprinting)

And you've managed to completely ignore the weight of the gear.

80lbs is less than half the body weight of most men (who are stronger per pound than women) while it might be closer to 2/3 the weight of women in decent condition. If you increased the load of the men to 130+ lbs then you'd start to see a lot of them dropping from exhaustion. People aren't machines. They have limits. Women's limits are significantly lower than men's.

What do you take out of a woman's kit? Whose kit do you put it in? Why the **** should we add another worry into the minds of frontline soldiers and officers (making sure the women don't get bunched up and get ****ed when they need to dig themselves in or grab an ammunition case or drag their friend to safety)?

not to mention women have to have hairdryers and other associated bueaty products in their packs. So theirs will actually be heavier than men's packs.

[Dis]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
That's mostly food that was in your gut, etc.

The real weight loss starts after the first week. Aim for 2 lbs a week.

9 pounds of food!

[Dis]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
Why the hell did you cite that as a "source"?

It's a mass of fairly meaningless opinions, not a ****ing piece of evidence for a factual claim.

yeah I quit reading it. It cites different standards between the services. Which only makes sense to me. No reason to expect someone in the air force or navy to meet the same physical standards as the marines. The marines are the best for a reason. They are the strongest and toughest.

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by Mr. Harley
And for a little more argument...

2. The "women were not in combat in the Gulf War" claim:
The media and some parts of the Pentagon decided that women were not in combat in the Gulf. The phrase "in combat" has more definitons than a dictionary, including separate definitions by each branch of the military and the by U.S. Congress. In advocating for women in combat it is not advocacy for women to engage in hand-to-hand gut slitting direct ground combat - women are still excluded from that and many have no desire to even think about qualifying. Perhaps combat roles would be a better term.
The reality is that women certainly performed combat roles in the Gulf - they flew refueling planes, flew troop transport aircraft and helicopters, fired Patriots that destroyed Scud missiles, supplied mechanized brigades with fuel and ammunition, loaded bombs, operated radios, radar, and military vehicles. They marched through mine fields, maintained aircraft, guarded perimeters, accepted the surrender of Iraqi soldiers and subsequently pulled guard duty. Women were taken prisoner and some lost their lives in the Gulf - is that not being in combat?

source

Isn't that a little brutal method to clear minefields ? Since it's illegal to use enemy soldiers in that way, I guess that there are similar rules against using female soldiers of your own.



Btw. Here there are campaigns for women to volounteer despite not even a third of men are drafted.

[Dis]

that article is ****ing hilarious. It's left wing crap.

It paints all the male soldiers as wife beaters.

And they spell guys as guyz.

[lord of the mark]

Most of what KH is talking about apply to infantry only. Most billets in the US military are not infantry, IIUC. Once again, Israel conscripts women, and seems to find uses for all of them, though they dont put them in combat roles anymore. IIUC one of their specialties is training marksmen.

KH seems to think conscription would only take place if the world were falling apart. While I disagree with proposals to start conscription now, Im not sure it would have to be as extreme as what KH says. And Im not sure that in such a situation there wouldnt be a huge demand for folks other than general infantry. Certainly one should be aware that is what is driving what hes saying.


There WILL nonetheless be women in infantry roles. There were women in such roles during the American Civil War on both sides. I know this, cause POTM did a big history project on this. Of course those were times when it was accepted that you wouldnt bathe for months at a time, so preserving ones secret was far easier.

[lord of the mark]

Haaretz:


"Women should be allowed to serve as combat soldiers, but not in the infantry or armored corps, an Israel Defense Forces committee appointed by the chief of staff has recommended.

The proposed ban on the infantry and tank corps is because these units generally fight under crowded conditions that would not permit separation between men and women, the committee said.

Currently, women serve as combat soldiers in anti-aircraft units, light infantry, ABC (atomic, biological and chemical) warfare units and certain artillery units.

Among the committee's other recommendations:
* Female combat soldiers should serve three years, as men do, rather than the two years most women serve.
* Each unit should have at least one single-sex company in which religious soldiers may serve if they choose.
* All soldiers, male and female, should wear full army dress on base.
* Female physical trainers should wear "modest" sweatsuits provided by the army; religious soldiers may demand a male instructor instead.
* Barracks will be single-sex only; tents will be divided into male and female sections by a curtain.

The commission was set up after several rabbis from pre-military academies and hesder yeshivas (which combine Torah study with army service) complained that integrating women in combat units made life difficult for religious men and could deter them from serving in such units.

Its recommendations will now be presented to the rabbis. A senior rabbi told Ha'aretz that at first glance, the proposals appear acceptable. "

[lord of the mark]

"The Israel Defense Forces are planning a significant increase in the number of women soldiers who will serve in combat units. The IDF's manpower division and the ground force command are working on plans to this effect.

In the first stage, it will be possible to increase the number of women combatants three-fold, according to a senior military source. Most of them will be sent to positions involving the securing of the seam line, he said, since the IDF believes it will be necessary to send large numbers of units there after the first part of the security fence - between Salem and Kafr Qassem - is completed in July 2003. Part of this job will be the purview of the Border Police, but the IDF will also have to provide light infantry units and forces for the look-out posts.

Most of the male combatants are required for the IDF's frontline infantry brigades, such as the paratroopers, Golani, Nahal and Givati, and the armored, engineering and artillery corps. Female combatants have meanwhile proven themselves extremely capable in the mixed (men and women) infantry units in the Southern Command, along the borders with Egypt and Jordan. The IDF believes that units like these would be useful also along the seam line.

"Women will constitute a significant, a major, part in the operational line-up along the seam line," a senior officer said. "We now have complete faith in their combat capabilities. We will not put women in frontline positions but there is no reason why they should not help staff the units securing the seam line."

He added: "The cynics say that we have not yet been able to provide masses of female combatants. We want to make combat the objective of the elite among the women conscripts. If so, we have to change our basic attitude. We will no longer ask: `Who wants to be a combat soldier?' We will say: `You are suitable. We need you as a combat soldier.'"

The IDF is working on brochures that will be sent to young women who are about to be called up for service, suggesting that they volunteer for combat units. The process will remain voluntary and a woman who refuses to serve in a combat unit will not be forced to do so.

According to the State Comptroller's Report, published two months ago, only about 1 percent of the women conscripts volunteered for such units. The IDF believes that, in a few months, the number can be trebled.

The IDF is also interested in encouraging women to serve in "combat support" positions, such as medics, communications operators, mechanics and technicians in field units. Women will also be placed in such formerly males-only jobs as truck drivers.

The existing screening process for women is much less detailed than for male conscripts. It will have to be revised and the women conscripts will have to undergo psycho-technical testing as the men do. The IDF is currently testing whether the technological screening system used for male conscripts - which examines such attributes as cognitive and spatial abilities and coordination, required of male combatants and candidates for the pilots' course - are suitable for women. "


I guess Jewish women are just superior

[Dis]

the problem remains that men are not allowed to see the females naked. Or it'd be sexual harrassment. This is a serious constriction. Entire navy ships had to be redesigned to accomidate this. I can't imagine how difficult this would be in actual battlefield conditions.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
Most of what KH is talking about apply to infantry only. Most billets in the US military are not infantry, IIUC.

Take a look at the last time there was a large callup of conscripted men. What position did most of these men fill?

Here's a hint: 03xx and 11x

[Ben Kenobi]

This is something that's bugged me for a while. I'm not a fan of the draft in the first place, but if they are going to have it, it should at least be done sensibly. Exempting women from the draft is unfair to both women (who it is implied are not true equals since they cannot bear the full burdens of citizenship), and men (who are now statistically more likely to die, simply because of the sex they were born as).

Fact of life for the men to be more likely to die at any age. I would rather not see a draft, and rely upon a purely volunteer force, and I would not discourage any woman who wished to enlist in a non-combat role.

I don't think it's right for the men to complain when women have plenty of other things that we don't have to go through.

[Sikander]

Wow, what a long and intellectually dishonest attempt to fight anecdote with anecdote. I'd certainly rather have a very fit and capable woman by my side in combat than an unfit and incapable man. But the odds are that a given man is going to be better suited to combat than a given woman. Let's set standards that actually have something to do with the job at hand and let the chips fall where they may.