A question about the Christian theory of creation

[Ben Kenobi]

The waters existed before God entered the picture in Genesis. Reading the first verse into the story is a mistake, the first verse sets up the story like a chapter heading. What follows the first verse is the Bible's description of God's creation of Heaven and Earth.

I had thought this when I read the verse. However, that raises the question, if God is eternal, then how could the unformed matter be also eternal? At some point God had to create the heavens and the earth.

The Earth wasn't made by God, it appeared when the waters below the firmament receded.

Remember, "Earth" literally means "dry land", it doesn't mean this planet or even the surface. So its illogical for God to create the dry land (Earth) if the dry land is without form after God created it. Your interpretation requires us to believe God created Heaven and Earth twice.

"Earth" I am taking to mean "matter" in contrast to "heavens" which is "spirit". The way that I worded my argument is that God created the heavens and the earth, and then formed the heavens and the Earth. There is a difference between creating and forming.

Alot happens before God creates Heaven and Earth, the scene awaiting God is described - the waters, the breath or wind of God blowing across the face of the Deep, let there be light, etc...

Very true, which is why the verse starts with the beginning of forming the heavens and the earth.

[SlowwHand]

Well, UR. Whatever it takes to get the point across.
If drawing hands does it, so be it.

[SlowwHand]

What slays me is people asking for an explanation of God, when we can't even figure out how the Hell to fix Earth.

Sit down to a meal, asking what's for dessert.

[FrostyBoy]

http://www.spikedhumor.com/articles/28846/Family_Guy_The_Big_Bang.html

[DaShi]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger


This reminds me of Escher's drawings. Esp. the one where the two hands draw each other.

You mean the one that looks a bit like the Yin-Yang symbol?

[Terra Nullius]

Originally posted by Berzerker
Terra - the wind or spirit of God has a mesopotamian origin

OK. Are you intending to make an argument from that or just offering extra info?

in the battle between Marduk and Tiamat, 7 "winds" are brought forth and I believe 4 are used as weapons by Marduk to dis-embowel Tiamat.

... and all along I thought it was the evil step-mother.

[Terra Nullius]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
"Earth" I am taking to mean "matter" in contrast to "heavens" which is "spirit".

That's one interpretation. Part of what I cut out of the text explains that "heavens" can just as well be translated as "sky."

I'm not interested in arguing for a definitive translation, but "land" and "sky" offer a very different portrait to "Earth" and "heavens."

I think a critical part of the Rainbow Spirit interpretation is God's immanence in the land.

The way that I worded my argument is that God created the heavens and the earth, and then formed the heavens and the Earth. There is a difference between creating and forming.

Again, I'm not interested in who is right or wrong, but your interpretation is precisely what the elders are critiquing.

IOW, your understanding of the Genesis text is culturally conditioned and based on historically European assumptions.

[Terra Nullius]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
Sit down to a meal, asking what's for dessert.

You so totally suck!

[Berzerker]

Ben

I had thought this when I read the verse. However, that raises the question, if God is eternal, then how could the unformed matter be also eternal? At some point God had to create the heavens and the earth.

Why does it raise a question about "eternity"? Matter wasn't unformed, the water (deep) covered the "dry" land and the land was exposed as a result of creation. Thus the Earth came into existence...

"Earth" I am taking to mean "matter" in contrast to "heavens" which is "spirit". The way that I worded my argument is that God created the heavens and the earth, and then formed the heavens and the Earth. There is a difference between creating and forming.

In Genesis God actually defines these terms, He named the dry land "Earth" and the firmament separating us from the waters above He named Heaven. And in the Mesopotamian versions the Heaven or firmament is called the hammered-out bracelet as a blacksmith hammers out metal to form a band or bracelet (a nice metaphor for the asteroid belt). Genesis is a story about our solar system, not the universe. Thats why the waters not only appear first in the story but why the Bible never claims God created the waters in Genesis.

Very true, which is why the verse starts with the beginning of forming the heavens and the earth.

But Heaven and Earth are not formed until verses 8-10 (I think) after the waters appear in the story. "In the beginning" just means when Heaven and Earth were created, but the beginning took 6 "days" with Heaven and Earth appearing on the 2nd or 3rd day (I forget which day).

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
What slays me is people asking for an explanation of God, when we can't even figure out how the Hell to fix Earth.

D'oh, another non sequitur.

[DaShi]

Well, you do ask for an explanation of God in nearly every religious thread regardless of context.

[Sarxis]

If you really do want to know the truth, you must be willing to do God's will. He will reveal the truth to you if you ask Him.

[Ben Kenobi]

IOW, your understanding of the Genesis text is culturally conditioned and based on historically European assumptions.

And I'm sure yours is wholly objective.

The problem with your argument is that it raises a whole host of theological questions, similar to the one that I asked Berz about. If God is eternal that means at some point he must have created the unformed matter, ie 'the deep.' If you believe that God is not eternal, and that matter pre-existed God, then why does it make sense to say that if the matter was there before God, that you require God to form the matter into what we know now as the heavens and the earth

[Ben Kenobi]

Why does it raise a question about "eternity"? Matter wasn't unformed, the water (deep) covered the "dry" land and the land was exposed as a result of creation. Thus the Earth came into existence...

It was unformed. You are leaping ahead in the story. It said that the earth was formless and void.

In Genesis God actually defines these terms, He named the dry land "Earth" and the firmament separating us from the waters above He named Heaven.

Also true, but again I am referring to the 'earth' as the word used in that very first passage, again the earth was without form and void.

And in the Mesopotamian versions the Heaven or firmament is called the hammered-out bracelet as a blacksmith hammers out metal to form a band or bracelet (a nice metaphor for the asteroid belt).

All very fine, but in case you haven't noticed, this thread is about the Christian account of creation. This is all off-topic to our purpose. If we want to understand the Christian account, then we must confine ourselves to what the Christians actually say.

Genesis is a story about our solar system, not the universe. Thats why the waters not only appear first in the story but why the Bible never claims God created the waters in Genesis.

According to whom? You? Christians? The Christians say that this is the biblical account of Creation, ie for the universe, not just the solar system. Of course, a better argument would say that the account of creation focusses on the creation of the Earth, because God tends to tell us the plan as it regards ourselves.

But Heaven and Earth are not formed until verses 8-10 (I think) after the waters appear in the story. "In the beginning" just means when Heaven and Earth were created, but the beginning took 6 "days" with Heaven and Earth appearing on the 2nd or 3rd day (I forget which day).

Berz, get your bible quote the bible if you want to contribute anything to the discussion. It doesn't help you to muddle about 'thinking' you know what the verses say.

[Ned]

Originally posted by DaShi
UR in 3, 2, 1...

The Holy Trinity assumes that God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are all the same. However, that fits with the both divine and human aspect in that the divine part was God and the human part was Christ. Thus, Jesus could talk to God without looking any more crazy.

The Holy Trinity is a fabrication forced on the Church by the monotheist Constantine.