Prayer does not heal the sick, study finds

[Ben Kenobi]

And thanks for the study DD.

[SlowwHand]

Guidance. Thanks. Inspiration. Strength.


BTW, it's atheists who start these threads. Would seem to be it's they who are lacking in confidence.
Believers have confidence through faith. The world doesn't exist to serve our purpose.

[Japher]

The world doesn't exist to serve our purpose.

Or does it?!

[Arrian]

Ok, Slowwy. Only the atheists start threads to debate religion.



There have been many threads started by believers.

-Arrian

[Richelieu]

Originally posted by Japher


Or does it?!

Or am I so sane that you just blew your mind?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Arrian
Ok, Slowwy. Only the atheists start threads to debate religion.



There have been many threads started by believers.

-Arrian

yes, mine on Japanese Cherry Trees is a good one.

As indeed, was my thread in Other Games on "what constrains your gaming?"

And the threads i started in a vain attempt to keep the paradox games forum alive here.

Get some sleep

[Bill3000]

Originally posted by Jon Miller


Bill, if it did work, it would represent the first step in prayer no longer being in the realm of the supernatural, but instead being just a science, like Physics.

In 200-300 years (maybe less) we would have sections devoted to the study of prayer (and possibly other, 'supernatural' things), like there is now sections devoted to the study of physics or biology.

I mean, consider lightning. At 500 BC, it was Zeus throwing thunderbolts, at 1760 AD it was being studied as electricity. In 500 BC it was supernatural, at 1760 AD it was science.

So for prayer to remind supernatural (like I beleive it is), there would have to be a null result from this experiment (note that I can't determine if this experiment returns a null result or a negative one).

Jon Miller

No. Electricity, regardless if it was believed to be the power of the gods or not, is still a natural phenomenon before people understood it. It does not mean that the gods were in control of electricity.

If it can be observed, directly or not, then it is part of nature. If prayer did actually heal, then it would be part of nature. Otherwise it does not exist. It's simple. Does it exist? Then it is part of nature. End of story. If god existed, on another plane or whatever, no matter what explanation that would be required, then it is part of nature.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Bill3000


No. Electricity, regardless if it was believed to be the power of the gods or not, is still a natural phenomenon before people understood it. It does not mean that the gods were in control of electricity.

If it can be observed, directly or not, then it is part of nature. If prayer did actually heal, then it would be part of nature. Otherwise it does not exist. It's simple. Does it exist? Then it is part of nature. End of story. If god existed, on another plane or whatever, no matter what explanation that would be required, then it is part of nature.

this is an old philosophical debate, that Rosenzweig makes explicit and addresses in the early chapters of the Star of Redemption. he is arguing against Spinoza, IIUC, as well as Hegel, and by extension against the later solution of Kaplan.

[Kassiopeia]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
I wish I hadn't clicked on this one.

Me too, me too.

[Elok]

But thanks anyway for "winning" the argument by switching definitions. Not that I agree with JM's exact argument (as presented, it feels a tad Pangloss to me), but really...if prayer were scientifically verifiable, ie it elicited a predictable response in multiple observed trials, it would be indicative of an unknown but mindless scientific phenomenon like gravity or magnetism rather than a self-aware being granting petitions. It's the nature of the matter to not be provable in that respect. If it does not meet the criteria you set forth for you to consider it "real"...then it is not "real" only insofar as it does not meet your particular definition of the word. Your argument is stacking the deck against the possibility of God from the beginning, then laughing and saying "I told you so."

[Gibsie]

Originally posted by Elok
Uh, no. Beliefs on prayer are complex and varied. I myself am on the fence about prayer, personally, but the protection-racket metaphor is only applicable to the beliefs of a fairly thin swath of fundie nuts. Continue this strawman crap, and I just might be forced to assume all atheists support book-burning and state-enforced discrimination against believers, like....ahem...a certain polytubbie does.

If you believe that prayer helps people to any degree on a spirutal level, then that means that not praying does not provide the same level of benefit (Pretty big leap of logic there I know!). Therefore if you don't have people praying for you, you lose out. Basically, pay god tribute or your loved ones will suffer. The person praying is asking God to protect someone- how is that not a protection scheme, if it works? Feel free to look up what a strawman is, because this is a logical statement of suppositions, and even though you may not like it, it doesn't make it anywhere near the level of, "LOL ATHEISTS R NAZIS LOL". You idiot.

My overall point is that if God is just and fair, he will provide every one of his children, that we are told he loves, with equal amounts of help. If he aids the healing of one person when he could help others, simply because that person might have had people praying for him, then I'm free to draw whatever conclusion I like about that. And I would say that kind of god is about as nice as an animal rights activist who only campaigns for the rights of cute fluffy animals that everyone loves.

[Elok]

I wasn't aware that I, or anyone I know, had that kind of mechanistic impression of the process. We're talking about a religion here, not the tokens system at Chuck E. Cheese's, and there are various trends in theology, many of which differ from the ludicrous model used by the RCC during its "Treasury of Merit" era, which appears to be what you're referencing. There are varying understandings of how it works (including a mystical one that holds that, in prayer, we participate to a lesser extent in the triune nature of the trinity by according our will to God's own). It's a tricky subject, tied into arguments about Free Will, but you should learn some of the details before making such absurd blanket statements.

[Ben Kenobi]

I thought the key was to make friends of enemies, and not enemies of friends elok.

Gibsie:

If you believe that prayer helps people to any degree on a spirutal level, then that means that not praying does not provide the same level of benefit (Pretty big leap of logic there I know!). Therefore if you don't have people praying for you, you lose out. Basically, pay god tribute or your loved ones will suffer. The person praying is asking God to protect someone- how is that not a protection scheme, if it works?

For starters, you pray not because you believe God is going to punish you otherwise, you pray because you want to pray. It is a way to have your own worries and fears heard by him, and it includes praying for your family, for everyone you feel needs a hand.

There aren't specific benefits tied to prayer, ie, if I pray for this, I can expect to get this from God, you pray, and see what happens afterwards. Now you are assuming that God punishes those who refuse to pray to him, yet 'rain falls on both the righteous and the wicked.' And believers still suffer even if they pray for release.

My overall point is that if God is just and fair, he will provide every one of his children, that we are told he loves, with equal amounts of help.

I hope not! There are plenty of folks who can use way more help from God then others. If God helped everyone equally, I can't see what you mean by 'equal'. People themselves are not equal, so if he helped everyone exactly the same, it would not make them equal.

Yes God loves each one of us, but that doesn't mean that he ought to provide for everyone in exactly the same way. My needs are different from yours, and God understands that. He will provide to each according to his plan.

If he aids the healing of one person when he could help others, simply because that person might have had people praying for him, then I'm free to draw whatever conclusion I like about that. And I would say that kind of god is about as nice as an animal rights activist who only campaigns for the rights of cute fluffy animals that everyone loves.

True. God provides many many blessings for those who will never acknowledge him. And it's a good thing he does, for none of us would ever come to know him otherwise.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
I think that prayer can do something also....

Just not that it always does...

There is a big difference between science and the supernatural.

These people are trying to limit God. By saying that He has to work in the way they wish whenever they pray.

A big to those who thought the result would be conclusively otherwise.

Basically this was an attempt to make God under the realm of science, to probe Him with a microscope. And it failed, like it should.

Just not that long ago there was a similar study conducted in South Korea. When the results showed that prayers help, many Christians brandished that as evidence of YHWH's existence.

[Later on it was shown that there's a flaw in the method used in the study.]

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
A prayer is a petition of sorts. What you wish would happen. It comes true if it fits His plan.

You know, a plan doesn't fit in with an omnscient, omnipotent being...