French labour laws trigger immense protests

[DAVOUT]

[QUOTE]
Well, mine, for example. I have carried crates around a sports store for two weeks. And then, I've been putting the small security device on clothes and shoes for about 10 days (and I have already 2 more days planned). This is something for which I had no prior training whatsoever. And yet, they consistently ask me to come back. I guess my work is worth at least my pay (actually, I'm sure it's worth significantly more - they could easily put two guys paid as much as me to do the same work).
[QUOTE]
What can be the salary for putting a security device on clothes or shoes or whatever?
Before adopting the security device, the company has experienced losses due to merchandises stolen by clients; generally, it does not exceed a few percents (which is likely a significant part of the profit), and it must be put under control. The company looks for a device and makes an estimate of the cost, which includes : depreciation of the machine at the door to detect the device, cost of the device, cost of fixing the device. This is compared to the losses due to merchandises stolen, and it has to be smaller. But if the amount available for the fixing is not big enough to bear the minimum salary, the project will be cancelled.

You see, there is not a bad employer only willing to exploit a poor Spiffor, there is a guy trying to improve his business which is loosing money until he has found a solution to suppress the cause of the loss at an acceptable cost.

[DAVOUT]

Well, mine, for example. I have carried crates around a sports store for two weeks. And then, I've been putting the small security device on clothes and shoes for about 10 days (and I have already 2 more days planned). This is something for which I had no prior training whatsoever. And yet, they consistently ask me to come back. I guess my work is worth at least my pay (actually, I'm sure it's worth significantly more - they could easily put two guys paid as much as me to do the same work).

What can be the salary for putting a security device on clothes or shoes or whatever?
Before adopting the security device, the company has experienced losses due to merchandises stolen by clients; generally, it does not exceed a few percents (which is likely a significant part of the profit), and it must be put under control. The company looks for a device and makes an estimate of the cost, which includes : depreciation of the machine at the door to detect the device, cost of the device, cost of fixing the device. This is compared to the losses due to merchandises stolen, and it has to be smaller. But if the amount available for the fixing is not big enough to bear the minimum salary, the project will be cancelled.

You see, there is not a bad employer only willing to exploit a poor Spiffor, there is a guy trying to improve his business which is loosing money until he has found a solution to suppress the cause of the loss at an acceptable cost.

[pchang]

Very Divergent Views

I have seen some very divergent views between Europe and the US regarding wealth.

In Europe, it is considered distasteful (or even evil) to accumulate a lot of wealth. Therefore, very high marginal tax rates are justified.

In the US, accumulating a lot of wealth is considered a worthy goal and is often encouraged. Therefore, while higher marginal tax rates are justified, very high marginal tax rates are to be avoided.

In Europe, those in charge of a failed business are pariahs who should not be allowed to be in management positions ever again.

In the US, those in charge of a failed business have management experience. They will be given another chance at management (either at an existing company or new start up) if their business plan and abilities are deemed sufficient.

Many in Europe wonder how to encourage more entrepreneurial activity in Europe to combat stagnant growth. In Europe, the benefits of being an entrepreneur are largely muted, while the risks of being an entrepreneur are actually increased.

[Lawrence of Arabia]

"I want a 'lazy' job like my dad"

[Fake Boris]

Originally posted by DanS
I'm just surprised that you take such a snobbish view.

so now being snobbish is to be against a McPay?

[Fake Boris]

another witty cartoon from LoA

[Lawrence of Arabia]

if people were really all that against mcdonalds, they wouldnt be eating there in records numbers in france.

[snoopy369]

Spiffor, either France is a completely different beast than the US, which I doubt, or you're quite overly pessimistic.

Speaking as a manager who has done some hiring and interviewing in a retail store, I can tell you that there is a significant incentive to pay more than minimum wage for high performers. People apply for work and indicate their "expected salary" range, and I know that many good people are turned away by a low salary range; alternately, I know that we've hired people who were very good because they preferred my company's somewhat higher base pay than their other similar options.

Indeed, I hire among others, people who do jobs similar to yours - sorting and shelving merchandize, and putting security tags on as they go (there's not as much reason for separating those two positions out in a bookstore). Productivity is definitely relevant there, and once the employee's worked long enough for the productivity to be seen, there are performance based raises, as well as increases in hours available to work, for the employees like yourself that work harder than others. There's no way, with a reduction or elimination of minimum wage, that we'd cut back from that wage; we'd never hire anyone good after that if we did.

In fact, if the minimum wage went away entirely tomorrow, I doubt we'd change anything about our wages, simply because then we'd get far lower quality hires, unless EVERYONE changed their wages - and I don't think that would happen, because you have plenty of things that aren't tied to minimum wage at all (waiters, for example, are essentially unaffected by the minimum, as the $2.15 an hour they make "minimum" is nothing compared to their tips, and mostly exists to ensure the government has some money to take back ...)

The only jobs that would be affected are jobs where the quality is nearly irrelevant - McJobs - which is why there's a minimum wage; it's a form of corporate sponsored welfare, where companies pay more to their employees than they'd prefer in order to make sure they don't starve. Nobody outside of McJobs is affected in any meaningful way by the minimum wage.

[Fake Boris]

Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia
if people were really all that against mcdonalds, they wouldnt be eating there in records numbers in france.

i was talking about a McPay, you know

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia
if people were really all that against mcdonalds, they wouldnt be eating there in records numbers in france.

The anwser is, like in America, it is fashionable to hate fastfood but when it comes down to it people are in a hurry and the McDonald's just happens to be across the street. That's just life.

[Provost Harrison]

Originally posted by snoopy369
Spiffor, either France is a completely different beast than the US, which I doubt, or you're quite overly pessimistic.

Speaking as a manager who has done some hiring and interviewing in a retail store, I can tell you that there is a significant incentive to pay more than minimum wage for high performers. People apply for work and indicate their "expected salary" range, and I know that many good people are turned away by a low salary range; alternately, I know that we've hired people who were very good because they preferred my company's somewhat higher base pay than their other similar options.

Indeed, I hire among others, people who do jobs similar to yours - sorting and shelving merchandize, and putting security tags on as they go (there's not as much reason for separating those two positions out in a bookstore). Productivity is definitely relevant there, and once the employee's worked long enough for the productivity to be seen, there are performance based raises, as well as increases in hours available to work, for the employees like yourself that work harder than others. There's no way, with a reduction or elimination of minimum wage, that we'd cut back from that wage; we'd never hire anyone good after that if we did.

In fact, if the minimum wage went away entirely tomorrow, I doubt we'd change anything about our wages, simply because then we'd get far lower quality hires, unless EVERYONE changed their wages - and I don't think that would happen, because you have plenty of things that aren't tied to minimum wage at all (waiters, for example, are essentially unaffected by the minimum, as the $2.15 an hour they make "minimum" is nothing compared to their tips, and mostly exists to ensure the government has some money to take back ...)

The only jobs that would be affected are jobs where the quality is nearly irrelevant - McJobs - which is why there's a minimum wage; it's a form of corporate sponsored welfare, where companies pay more to their employees than they'd prefer in order to make sure they don't starve. Nobody outside of McJobs is affected in any meaningful way by the minimum wage.

Oh well that does it, I am going to leave the world of analytical chemistry and become a burger flipper

[JohnT]

After reading this thread, methinks the problem is that the French just overanalyze this stuff too much. I mean, Spiffor, reading your explanations of how things work in France is like reading 12th-century Scholastic texts: the twists and turns Aquinas, Dante, et al had to make in order to fit the world into their theo(ry/logy) is akin to the tortured explanations as to why you people just can't even dare give the law, and a new set of assumptions, a chance.

World Economy to France: "Cya!"

[Lawrence of Arabia]

i was talking about a McPay, you know

McMerde.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia
no, a more productive worker will get paid more. W(age) = P(rice) * Marginal Product of Labor. Holding prices constant, we see that wages are tied to MPL. more productive workers get paid more, at all levels of salary.

Explain me why my wage has consistently been strictly tied to the minimal wage then.

I mean, if I had been an unproductive worker, the sports store would have fired me (err, not re-hired me) a long time ago. It happened to quite a few colleagues. I've spent about a month with them, and now they know I'm szerious and productive. At least, that's what I guess, considering that they consistently call me back to work for them.

Yet, I don't have any raise, that matches my productivity. How come? Is my productivity strictly equal to the minimal wage? That would be an amazing coincidence.

[Dauphin]

Have you asked for or demanded more?