French labour laws trigger immense protests

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Or if you are supporting multiple people in your household. Who is going to pay for your grandparents? Or, I guess you're content with saying, screw you grandpa, live on what the government gives you and leave me alone?!

It's not the government, it's me. About 20% of the price I cost to my employer goes to retirement. My pockets only line about 60% of what my employer pays.

Or, heaven forbid you want more than the 'standard number' of children.

Family grants are of considerable help to families that have 3+ kids. Family grants are also part of the 40% (of the cost I represent) that goes directly to the social system.

Lets give the lucky bastards who have them more security, so they can lord over the underclass we have purposely created by our idiotic laws!

I find something deliciously ironic with that statement. Nearly all of my temp colleagues hoped they'll one day land a stable job, maybe after showing dedication in the right temp mission. A kind of "French dream" if you wish, in reference to the American dream. In the US, poor people have hopes to become self-made-men, so that the underclass doesn't become too unruly.

You wonder why people dislike commies who squash their freedoms

Curiously enough, Commies are getting an ever higher popularity in France these days. The Socialist Party (centre left) gives only timid answers to the challenges posed by the CPE. The various flavours of commies are currently in a recruiting spree, after years (if not decades) of weakened interest from the part of the population's.
In aprticular, according to polls, it is interesting to notice that there is a clear left-leanness among those impoverished youth who are beginning to grow interest for politics (after the riots of December, and now with the CPE).

[David Floyd]

Nearly all of my temp colleagues hoped they'll one day land a stable job, maybe after showing dedication in the right temp mission. A kind of "French dream" if you wish, in reference to the American dream.

The American Dream - build a family and prosper!

The French Dream - make sure you have a job!

Ah, the differences....

[Imran Siddiqui]

And when you need the money, there are ways to work more: sometimes, the law is disregarded (a colleague of mine, paid by the hour, worked more than 60 hours during a specific week). And many people, from mid-ranking management on, aren't paid by the hour. For example, most managers in my store have worked from 7:00 to 21:00 during the entire past week (they're quite tired now)

It is sad that if you want a bit more cash, you have to go around the law (where in other countries you can get a second, part-time, job for a few hours a week).

And managers aren't counted in the maximum 48 hours? I'm sure, also that there is plenty of disregard of the law in many areas, such as legal firms and whatnot.

The American Dream - build a family and prosper!

The French Dream - make sure you have a job!

Ah, the differences....

[LDiCesare]

Also, I believe that most high-ranking jobs are not paid by the hour, but by the mission, and are thus limit-less when it comes to time (high-ranking execs work like crazy)

Most people where I work are engineers and paid by the mission. There's no real time limit in hte facts, except (and even then...) the 11h between the closing and opening of the firm each day.
The protests in France were really stupid in my opinion since I can't understand why they protest only for people less than 26 in firms of 20+ and didn't protest against the same law for all ages and firms less than 20 people. Most of the protesters didn't say anything against the CNE and didn't think of the working since 14.

[Sandman]

Originally posted by ajbera
The understanding that in a free society people have the right to pursue and own private property. In a free society a decent person will gladly give food to those who need it, but are not forced at gunpoint to do so. If you choose not to feed to hungry, other free citizens are free to point at you and call you a douchebag.

IMO, it's better to be free to make the "wrong" decision than to be forced to make the "right" one.

Libertarians despise the poor. A society dominated by them is never going to gladly give food to the hungry, it'll only be 'encouraging the trash'.

[JohnT]

Originally posted by Spiffor

I expect this post to be welcome by something like "blah blah blah, more patronizing crap".
The reason for this is because I think some posters here (but maybe JohnT will surprise me) cannot imagine that social backgrounds can be ignored* when having a human relationship

"JohnT" works in an industry where it's quite possible to deal with a crackhead while having your clients VP of Operations run by "his" delivery station to see how things are going.

Unlike you, working with people who work with their hands isn't some academic exercise, or "time out from my real life", it is what we do. Distribution, of whatever sort, is tough work, one that, at the street level that is not usually done by college educated folk. I've seen people leave their babies in the car while they come in for an orientation about delivering stupid phone books... I've had people arrested in front of me... I've had people beg, plead for $53 that they think they "earned", even though they threw 1/2 of their books in a dumpster.

So, yeah... listening to you come in here and say "Hey, guys, get this - I actually worked with those people as part of some sort of self-improvement program to see how the other half lives" is pretty fuggin' patronizing on your part. I'm surprised that, with all the concern about the working man around here, that I'm the one who has to call you out on it.

*I think you're saying that one has to keep social backgrounds in mind when dealing with people. As written, it's kind of confusing.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by LDiCesare
The protests in France were really stupid in my opinion since I can't understand why they protest only for people less than 26 in firms of 20+ and didn't protest against the same law for all ages and firms less than 20 people. Most of the protesters didn't say anything against the CNE and didn't think of the working since 14.

The CPE has become the federative symbol of the fight. However, in the demos, you see the CNE to be very ofently associated with the CPE. As to the entire "loi sur l'égalité des chances", criticizing it might lead to divide the movement (some anti-CPE people actually agree with working at 14 ). And the movement will die nearly immediately if the unions are divided.

As to why the CNE didn't trigger such protests: It has been voted on the 26th July, and promulgated on 4th August.
At the beginning, people didn't care about the CPE, just like they didn't care about the CNE. It took more than a month to the organizations (unions and political organizations mostly) to have a broad movement against the CPE. The current tide of protestation wouldn't have existed if it hadn't been for more than a month of hard work on the organizations' part.

To put it cimply, such a thing isn't possible during the summer vacation.

[Lawrence of Arabia]

A failure of the french education system?

One of the arresting features of the current student movement is how little it has touched France's grandes écoles. Sciences Po, a feeder college for these elite schools, has seen nothing of the violence or forced blockades of nearby Paris universities, such as the Sorbonne. Nor have most of the country's top undergraduate business or engineering schools, such as Polytechnique, HEC or ESSEC. Students at such places, taught the latest in finance and economics, understand the price France will pay if it refuses to change. These are the well-trained graduates snapped up by banks in London and New York which are only too happy to benefit from what France does best, and by those French companies now busy exploiting globalisation with such aplomb.

These two faces of France are separated early in the country's two-tier higher education system. At the top, the grandes écoles cater to a small minority and are highly selective: would-be pupils spend at least a year in a preparatory class just to take the entrance exam. While the Ecole Nationale d'Administration (ENA) is the best-known (and arguably the least well-adapted to the global economy), it recruits only a tiny share of the total. The rest are autonomous, and highly specialised in areas such as engineering or business. And employers pay a premium to hire their graduates. A recent study by Le Nouvel Observateur magazine showed that 96% of graduates from top engineering schools were placed two years later in permanent jobs, earning an average of €30,400 ($36,600). By contrast. only 45% of university psychology graduates had found permanent jobs by the same stage, and their average income was €19,000.

France spends less per undergraduate each year than it does per high-school pupil. Lecturers are civil servants, employed by the national Ministry of Education. Universities have little autonomy. And much research is done elsewhere, at the national research institutes. Little wonder that France's undergraduate drop-out rate is about two-fifths and that, in the latest global ranking by Shanghai's Jiao Tong University, not a single French university appeared in the top 40.

Over 64% of French 15-24-year-olds in work are on temporary contracts one year after leaving education. The reason that these jobs are the best on offer is that permanent jobs are so protected, with complicated and uncertain redundancy rules, that employers hesitate to hire. This is precisely why Mr de Villepin wanted to loosen the firing rules for the young.

the objective of the students and public-sector trade unions is to prevent change, and to keep France the way it is. Indeed, according to one astonishing poll, three-quarters of young French people today would like to become civil servants, and mostly because that would mean “a job for life”.

a lack of ambition?

----

https://www.economist.com

[Provost Harrison]

Perhaps this temp work is more of a sign that greedy employers want their cake and eat it...getting the work with no commitment, rather than make a commitment. They want flexibility, but they shouldn't be allowed to have it all their own way...the laws on temp work and its abuses need to be tightened up considerably...

[Provost Harrison]

See, OTBOT agrees

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by JohnT
Unlike you, working with people who work with their hands isn't some academic exercise, or "time out from my real life", it is what we do.

And that's a good thing. I'd like that to be the case of the jobs I hope to do (working in politics). Unfortunately, once you really work in politics (and there's hard work, don't worry about that), you have little time ater the office to go meet outside people. This is actually one of the reasons of the disconnect between politicians and the people.
To make things worse, I've grown up in a neighbourhood which was pretty exclusive (actually, many people in France, rich and poor, have grown in an exclusive neighborhood). I am now doing what I can to offset this problem.

Distribution, of whatever sort, is tough work, one that, at the street level that is not usually done by college educated folk. I've seen people leave their babies in the car while they come in for an orientation about delivering stupid phone books... I've had people arrested in front of me... I've had people beg, plead for $53 that they think they "earned", even though they threw 1/2 of their books in a dumpster.

So, yeah... listening to you come in here and say "Hey, guys, get this - I actually worked with those people as part of some sort of self-improvement program to see how the other half lives" is pretty fuggin' patronizing on your part.

I don't understand the logical link between these two paragraphs. Who am I patronizing now? The poor or the Apolytoners?

I'm surprised that, with all the concern about the working man around here, that I'm the one who has to call you out on it.

Maybe because the others have understood what I'm doing, and that you're the one who reacts in a non-understandable way

*I think you're saying that one has to keep social backgrounds in mind when dealing with people. As written, it's kind of confusing.

I believe that different social backgrounds (as in: being on different scales on the social ladder) are an artificial hierarchy, and that they shouldn't colour one's feeling of being superior or inferior to another (in any case, I rarely feel superior or inferior to anybody).

When you say that I "lower [myself] to their level", you assume that I consider them to be below me. This is a false assumption. And this is the assumption that leads you to think I'm patronizing.
(unless you think you can be patronizing to your equals, in which case I really never undertood the word)

[Lawrence of Arabia]

Perhaps This Temp Work Is More Of A Sign That Greedy Employers Want Their Cake And Eat It...getting The Work With No Commitment

if you were right, we would see this behavior elsewhere, in places such as england or canada or america or australia. we dont. which means that its not a natural behavior of companies to only want to hire part time.

[Provost Harrison]

Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia

Perhaps This Temp Work Is More Of A Sign That Greedy Employers Want Their Cake And Eat It...getting The Work With No Commitment

if you were right, we would see this behavior elsewhere, in places such as england or canada or america or australia. we dont. which means that its not a natural behavior of companies to only want to hire part time.

Are you for real? I can personally testify that this is exactly the case in my country. Tell me, what do you do for a living?

[Lawrence of Arabia]

I've got not much against the normal 35 hour work week

You shouldnt - the running joke at the time was that for some, the workweek would decrease, but for the civil servants, their work week would increase

three kids are talking in a school yard during break. The first one says "my dad is the fastest in the world, he drives the TGV from paris to Geneva in 3 and a half hours." the second one says "my dad is the fastest in the world, he drives the concord from paris to new york in 4 hours. the third one says "my dad is the fastest in the world, he is a civil servant who finishes work at 5 o clock, and is home by 4:45

[Fake Boris]

One of the arresting features of the current student movement is how little it has touched France's grandes écoles. Sciences Po, a feeder college for these elite schools, has seen nothing of the violence or forced blockades of nearby Paris universities, such as the Sorbonne. Nor have most of the country's top undergraduate business or engineering schools, such as Polytechnique, HEC or ESSEC. Students at such places, taught the latest in finance and economics, understand the price France will pay if it refuses to change. These are the well-trained graduates snapped up by banks in London and New York which are only too happy to benefit from what France does best, and by those French companies now busy exploiting globalisation with such aplomb.

This is a mediocre argument at best... the Sorbonne isn't blocked because the cops cleared the barricades the morning right after. As for the Grandes Écoles, they aren't blocked because most of their students are preparing national contests... that will be held anyway at the end of the semester, unlike university students who have specific exams which can easily be postponed.

As for the HEC, who's really surprised that they're not striking?