French labour laws trigger immense protests

[Lawrence of Arabia]

your job at the store is a low productivity one - sticking security thingies and stocking shelves can be done by most anyone, does not require any particular competance or schooling.

why are you paid minmum wage? for 2 reasons
1. they arent allowed you pay you less
2. by doing that job, you might be marginally more productive and quicker at stocking and sticking (after a few days of learning how to do it best), but nothing that distinguishs you from anyone else. thus, you are not any more valuable to them than any other guy who they can get off the street.

example: on your first day you can stick 50 security labels and stock 20 books an hour. after three days, you can do 60 security lables and 30 books. your producitivty has improved, but not enough to warrant paying you more.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by snoopy369
Spiffor, either France is a completely different beast than the US, which I doubt, or you're quite overly pessimistic.

Speaking as a manager who has done some hiring and interviewing in a retail store, I can tell you that there is a significant incentive to pay more than minimum wage for high performers. People apply for work and indicate their "expected salary" range, and I know that many good people are turned away by a low salary range; alternately, I know that we've hired people who were very good because they preferred my company's somewhat higher base pay than their other similar options.

On the ther hand, you have about twice less unemployment than us (and that's according to the official, skewed stats. The people who'd be willing to work are far more numerous in France than the official 10%).
This sure gives Americans more opportunities to people to choose among several offers. Well, except for the tired, the poor, the wretched refuse who are stuck at low-level jobs and survival incomes, of course.

Indeed, I hire among others, people who do jobs similar to yours - sorting and shelving merchandize, and putting security tags on as they go (there's not as much reason for separating those two positions out in a bookstore). Productivity is definitely relevant there, and once the employee's worked long enough for the productivity to be seen, there are performance based raises, as well as increases in hours available to work, for the employees like yourself that work harder than others. There's no way, with a reduction or elimination of minimum wage, that we'd cut back from that wage; we'd never hire anyone good after that if we did.

I often hear employers saying something similar here: how hard it is to find a serious and dedicated employee. However, when such employers speak about their champions, I don't often hear them talking about a raise. Mostly about keeping them and offering overtime.

In fact, if the minimum wage went away entirely tomorrow, I doubt we'd change anything about our wages, simply because then we'd get far lower quality hires, unless EVERYONE changed their wages - and I don't think that would happen, because you have plenty of things that aren't tied to minimum wage at all

Well, in France, 17% of the workforce is paid the minimum wage. It's much more than before. If it is any indication, it shows that a great many people, in France at least, have their income tied to minimal wage (also, tipping is nearly inexistant here)

The only jobs that would be affected are jobs where the quality is nearly irrelevant - McJobs - which is why there's a minimum wage; it's a form of corporate sponsored welfare, where companies pay more to their employees than they'd prefer in order to make sure they don't starve. Nobody outside of McJobs is affected in any meaningful way by the minimum wage.

Again, 17% here. There's a reason for that.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia
why are you paid minmum wage? for 2 reasons
1. they arent allowed you pay you less
2. by doing that job, you might be marginally more productive and quicker at stocking and sticking (after a few days of learning how to do it best), but nothing that distinguishs you from anyone else. thus, you are not any more valuable to them than any other guy who they can get off the street.

Yes.

Market price.

The price I can bargain for.

NOT the price of my productivity. Those are two wholly different things. My productivity would be taken into account (when determining my wage) only if I demanded a wage that was worth more than my work. As long as my wage is lower than my work's worth, the price is only set by the laws of offer and demand, fortunately tamed by the existance of the minimal wage.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Dauphin
Have you asked for or demanded more?

I'm a temp worker. I know that if I show any demands, they'll quickly explain me that either I accept the conditions, or they'll take other temp workers instead. It's not like they're don't have choice.

The only way for me not to suffer from this kind of blackmail would be to be employed by them long-term. They wouldn't have the right to fire me simply because I can get demanding.

[Lawrence of Arabia]

you cannot speak of a true market price when there is a minimum wage. you dont get a raise because you are not any better at stocking and sticking then the next guy. period. your productivity is not any higher than the next guys in this task.

also, one of the reasons why the minimum wage is paid to 17% of french workers is because that wage is so high. that statistic is misleading.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by JohnT
After reading this thread, methinks the problem is that the French just overanalyze this stuff too much. I mean, Spiffor, reading your explanations of how things work in France is like reading 12th-century Scholastic texts: the twists and turns Aquinas, Dante, et al had to make in order to fit the world into their theo(ry/logy) is akin to the tortured explanations as to why you people just can't even dare give the law, and a new set of assumptions, a chance.

1. We already have a law similar to what was just rejected. The CNE (which applies to all small businesses, regardless of the age of the employees) has taken effect since August.
The government promised not to extend such laws before the results would be analysed. The government, as usual, lied.

2. French politics don't work that way, and I guess yours don't either. There's a big continuity between rightwing and leftwing governments here. There's no massive cancellation of laws voted by the previous parliament, when it switches.
This is why the left, despite its promises, didn't cancel the terrible immigration laws when they came to power in 1997. This is why the right didn't cancel the 35 hours workweek even though it despises that law.
Had the CPE been adopted, it would have pretty much been definitive. Now, the success of the anti-CPE protests are likely to mean that the project will be buried for a very long time, just like the "minimal wage for the youth" suggested in 1994, equally shot down, and which never resurfaced again

3. When there is a problem, it doesn't mean that an action, any action, should be taken. I remember the "we should try something about it, anything" line of thought before the Iraq war (these words have been written by Vel). Well, you tried the very bad idea, and it bit you in the ass.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia
you cannot speak of a true market price when there is a minimum wage. you dont get a raise because you are not any better at stocking and sticking then the next guy. period. your productivity is not any higher than the next guys in this task.

I'm bearded even though the store's policy discriminates against bearded people. Explain me why they call me back, if I'm not better than most of the (never to be seen again) colleagues I could meet some day or other.

[JohnT]

Well, France proves yet again that it is a country ruled by the mob.

[DinoDoc]

I thought that was Italy.

[Fake Boris]

Originally posted by JohnT
Well, France proves yet again that it is a country ruled by the mob.

vote every 5 years and drive your car and STFU - JohnT

[Provost Harrison]

Originally posted by JohnT
Well, France proves yet again that it is a country ruled by the mob.

That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. If a government does something the public does not agree with, is it not their right to make their views clear? This is what happened - solidarity...they got their own way by forcing the government, a supposedly democratic body, to do so...

Perhaps that's your problem - you're all to willing to let people like Bush get away with murder...

[DanS]

Originally posted by Oncle Boris
vote every 5 years and drive your car and STFU - JohnT

I'm sure JohnT votes about every year for dozens of offices.

[JohnT]

Just voted yesterday, as a matter of fact.

[JohnT]

Originally posted by Provost Harrison


That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. If a government does something the public does not agree with, is it not their right to make their views clear? This is what happened - solidarity...they got their own way by forcing the government, a supposedly democratic body, to do so...

Perhaps that's your problem - you're all to willing to let people like Bush get away with murder...

I think it's even more ridiculous to protest changes to policies that have inflicted upon you a 22% unemployment rate. That's idiotic!

"We might not have jobs, but at least the jobs we don't have are jobs worth not having!"

[JohnT]

Kudo's to whomever changed OTBOT's programming to not include modified texts in quotes.