French labour laws trigger immense protests

[DAVOUT]

Spiffor,
It is funny how you function; this country is not the one you depict (a few millions wealthy and 58 millions poor. More than the half sleep in a house they own. I am sure they appreciate it, even if when they have to move they will have to spent the amount they have collected from the sale.
About the price explosion of housing, in all the Europe, do you realize that it has something to do with the extremely low interests rates?
And do you remember that you have advocated strongly against the ECB because they stobbornly refused to lower the interest rate below 2%. If they had done that, the bubble would have been worse.
2. What are those untrained jobs providing sufficient added value? And are you telling that they are not offered, or they are offered and not accepted?

[Lawrence of Arabia]

First column: "SMIC horaire"
Third Column: "SHB" (Salaire Horaire de Base)

The salaTRI sheet is trimester data, not trimester income

right. regardless, +30% while panier de la ménagère +13% (+11% if you dont smoke)

btw, there is not a single category where salary has grown slower than le panier de la ménagère.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia
Quand je viens te visiter . . .

Désolé, non seulement elle est avec un autre (much to ym dismay), mais en plus elle s'est fait virer

Et pis c'est une communiste de toutes façons

and you know what? thats awesome. but with 20% student unemployment, when wages would drop, more students would get jobs. Studens who have lower productivity than your friends, who are now out of jobs, and can then find lower paying jobs.

I think you and DAVOUT overestimate the job-creating effect of lower wages. In a country with such productivity as France's, I don't think there are that many jobs just waiting to pop up, because their worth is less than the SMIC's.

However, there are plenty of existing and future jobs whose wage would be sunk as soon as it's legal. Because wages are determined in a market-like fashion, i.e according to supply and demand, and not strictly according to the actual wealth a job creates.

For example, in Germany, there is no such thing as a minimal wage across the board. When I was looking for student's jobs there, I encountered plenty of jobs paid 6€/hour. The market price of the time. The servant at the employment's agency tried to discourage me from accepting jobs with such a degrading pay, because she knew that the price was so low simply because the students would accept pretty much any ****, even though the employers could easily afford 8€ an hour (which they did in the past).

[DanS]

"Degrading pay"? What's that?

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by DAVOUT
Spiffor,
It is funny how you function; this country is not the one you depict (a few millions wealthy and 58 millions poor. More than the half sleep in a house they own. I am sure they appreciate it, even if when they have to move they will have to spent the amount they have collected from the sale.

We are still very much a middle-calss country. But we now have a lower class that is more alienated that it has ever been since WW2, and the middle-class is in a clear process of division.
I'm not thinking among the lines of 2 millions wealthy and 58 millions poor, but more among the lines of 6 millions on the rise (to which my family belongs), and 54 millions either stagnating or dropping.

About the price explosion of housing, in all the Europe, do you realize that it has something to do with the extremely low interests rates?

It is related, but it is not the only factor. Societal changes and a terribly lagging housing policy contributes to it.

And do you remember that you have advocated strongly against the ECB because they stobbornly refused to lower the interest rate below 2%. If they had done that, the bubble would have been worse.

This is not a bubble we are witnessing. Those are people who'll actually live in the house they buy, and only a small part of the demand is driven by specualtion.

2. What are those untrained jobs providing sufficient added value? And are you telling that they are not offered, or they are offered and not accepted?

Well, mine, for example. I have carried crates around a sports store for two weeks. And then, I've been putting the small security device on clothes and shoes for about 10 days (and I have already 2 more days planned). This is something for which I had no prior training whatsoever. And yet, they consistently ask me to come back. I guess my work is worth at least my pay (actually, I'm sure it's worth significantly more - they could easily put two guys paid as much as me to do the same work).

I'm also sure that, should the SMIC diminish, they'd immediately lower my wage to the new set price, regardless of the fact that I'm worth more than that.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by DanS
"Degrading pay"? What's that?

6€ an hour, when your employer knows full well he would be willing to pay more for the same work, if he didn't have such bargaining power.

[Lawrence of Arabia]

Désolé, non seulement elle est avec un autre (much to ym dismay), mais en plus elle s'est fait virer

Et pis c'est une communiste de toutes façons

t'inquiète, c'est bien connu que ceux qui habitent aux bords du léman font fondre les coeurs.
je m'en fiche d'affiliation politique.

I think you and DAVOUT overestimate the job-creating effect of lower wages. In a country with such productivity as France's, I don't think there are that many jobs just waiting to pop up, because their worth is less than the SMIC's.

However, there are plenty of existing and future jobs whose wage would be sunk as soon as it's legal. Because wages are determined in a market-like fashion, i.e according to supply and demand, and not strictly according to the actual wealth a job creates.

students and the young are in general low skill, low productivity. Wages are also determined by productivity. With 20% unemployment among the youth, that means that low productivity jobs are not being created.

You do you hate those who accept 6 euros an hour? if no one wants it, then it wouldnt be the market wage. what youre actually saying then is that you think that 6 euros an hour are degrading, but that there are people who do not think it is degrading, since they accept it consensually.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia
You do you hate those who accept 6 euros an hour? if no one wants it, then it wouldnt be the market wage. what youre actually saying then is that you think that 6 euros an hour are degrading, but that there are people who do not think it is degrading, since they accept it consensually.

I accepted the job, since I was seriously short on cash to pay for my food. The 100€ I got for the job doubled my food-budget that month.

Still, I felt the pay was degrading. But that was that, or not eating for several days.

[DanS]

Dude, you've got some serious hangups. I've never thought of any pay that I received as degrading.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia
students and the young are in general low skill, low productivity. Wages are also determined by productivity.

Wages are determined by the market, with only two thresholds:
- productivity (upper threshold): an employer won't offer a job that costs more than the wealth it creates.
- minimal wage (lower threshold): a lawful employer can't offer a job that pays less than the minimal wage.

Between those thresholds, wage is entirely determined by the bargaining power between the employer and the employee. Market mechanism. If the employee is weak, his pay is gonna be close to the minimal. If the employee is strong, then the pay will be close to the maximal.

Removing the minimal wage would only create jobs whose productivity is worth less than the minimal wage. And in a high-productivity country such as France, I don't think there are that many.
OTOH, removing the minimal wage will increase the leeway the employers enjoy to **** their employees over, and plenty of people paid the SMIC will see a drop in their income. Unless they manage to be strong. Which is quite an impossible feat in my branch at least.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by DanS
Dude, you've got some serious hangups. I've never thought of any pay that I received as degrading.

"Un travail non payé est un travail sans valeur"

(a work without pay is a work that has no worth).

I consider myself worthy, and I don't like being ****ed over by people who abuse my weakness to suck as much as they can from my work.

[DanS]

I'm just surprised that you take such a snobbish view.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by DanS
I'm just surprised that you take such a snobbish view.

It is snobbish to consider oneself's a worthy person?

[Lawrence of Arabia]

Un travail sans valeur est un travail non payé.

Wages are determined by the market, with only two thresholds:
- productivity (upper threshold): an employer won't offer a job that costs more than the wealth it creates.
- minimal wage (lower threshold): a lawful employer can't offer a job that pays less than the minimal wage.

no, a more productive worker will get paid more. W(age) = P(rice) * Marginal Product of Labor. Holding prices constant, we see that wages are tied to MPL. more productive workers get paid more, at all levels of salary.

and there are many low productivity workers - namely students and the young.

[DanS]

You're conflating the value of a person with the market value of a person's work.

I've never turned my nose up at my earnings, and many have been a lot less than E6/hr. It's something of an alien concept.