The creeping influence of OzzyKP continues to spread...

[Wycoff]

I don't think voting should be a "habit," as in some ritualized thing that people do just because they were socialized to do it at a young age (like taking Communion or something). That seems to be the direction that your point of view is taking.

The only people that I want voting are the ones who have taken the time to think about who they want to vote for and why prior to voting. People will do this when there ready. Some people will do it at 18; it takes other epeople a longer time to get to that point. I really don't think that lowering the voting age will make more people into responsible voters at 18, because I think that many people need to have life experience before they can start participating. I'd rather have fewer people vote at 18 and have their votes be well thought out than I would have higher 18 year old voter turnout because voting has been made into a secular ritual.

[Jaguar]

Originally posted by Sava

[Kontiki]

I'm wondering where this whole voting is habit forming argument is coming from. I voted in every major election (municipal and up) in which I was elegible from when I was 18, and it wasn't because the first time I voted it was such a rush that I just couldn't stop.

[Imran Siddiqui]

I am still young enough to clearly remember high school. The same people who were interested at 18 were the same ones interested at 16 (or 14, for that matter).

Bingo. Most 17 year olds at my school had no idea who the state Senators were. I don't think my school was some abberation on that account. To say it is because of hectic life changes at 18 which prevents teens from voting is silly, IMO. Generally speaking teens that don't care about politics at 16 won't care about them at 18, and teens that do care about politics at 16 will care at 18.

[OzzyKP]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

I am still young enough to clearly remember high school. The same people who were interested at 18 were the same ones interested at 16 (or 14, for that matter).

Bingo. Most 17 year olds at my school had no idea who the state Senators were. I don't think my school was some abberation on that account.

Youth Have the Political Knowledge to Vote Intelligently

• Youth are enrolled in school, taking history, government, law and/or economics.
  
  
• When students are taught a full course curriculum, they come to know MORE about politics and government than adults.
  

Example: Students who took the comprehensive We the People (“WTP”) constitutional law program scored BETTER than adults 18-80 in knowledge of government and politics. See Table below.

Question	WTP Students Answering Correctly	Adults (18-80) Answering Correctly
Could name the vice-president	96%	74%
Understood the meaning of “Judicial Review”	96%	66%
Knew Two-Thirds Veto Override Requirement	87%	34%
Knew which political party controlled the House of Representatives	68%	68%
Could explain political party ideology	87%	57%

High school students are more than qualified enough to vote: the federal Voting Rights Acts of 1965 (42 U.S.C. § 1971(c)) states that:

any person who has not been adjudged an incompetent and who has completed the sixth grade in a public school in, or a private school accredited by, any State or territory, the District of Columbia, or the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico where instruction is carried on predominantly in the English language, possesses sufficient literacy, comprehension, and intelligence to vote in any election.

Thus, if a 6th grade education is adequate for voting purposes, certainly the 10th grade education most 16 year-olds possess would be more than adequate.

http://www.youthrights.org/votetalkingpoints.shtml

[OzzyKP]

Originally posted by Wycoff
This is our basic disagreement then. If they're not interested at 18, then I doubt that they were interested at 16. I am still young enough to clearly remember high school. The same people who were interested at 18 were the same ones interested at 16 (or 14, for that matter). Those who didn't care at 18 certainly didn't care before they were 18...

Youth Want the Right to Vote and Will Turnout

• 73% of 12-17 year olds in a Washington Post survey were very interested or fairly interested in politics. 95% of these young people viewed voting in a presidential election as very important or fairly important.¹⁵
  
  
• Teens support a lower voting age: 73% of 12-17 year-olds in a 1991 Minneapolis mock election supported a voting age of 16.¹⁶
  
  
• Teens will turnout and vote:
  
  
  
  • Germany- Several states lowered the voting age to 16 for local elections, with higher turnout for voters under 18 than for 18-24 year-olds.
    
    
    
    • City of Hanover (1996) 16-17 year-olds (56.5% turnout), 18-24 year-olds (49.1% turnout).¹⁷
      
    • City of Braunscheig (1996), 16-17 year-olds (50.4% turnout), 18-24 year-olds (44.5% turnout).¹⁸
      
      
    • State of Saxony-Anhelt (1999) (all major cities), 16-17 year-olds (33% turnout), 18-21 year-olds (32% turnout), 21-25 year-olds (24% turnout).¹⁹
      
    
    
  • Austria- Several Austrian provinces also lowered their voting age to 16. 16-17 year-olds have turned out well. For example, in the City of Graz, January 2003- 16-17 year-olds turned out at a higher rate (58%) than the total voter turnout (57%).²⁰
    
    
  • USA- For the most part, turnout among American youth must be examined by comparing mock election turnout number with adult turnout.
    
    
    
    • Minneapolis School Board Election (1991)- 12-17 year olds (40% turnout ), Adults (5.6% turnout); ²¹
      
    • Washington D.C. (1994) (Kids Voting Mock Election)- students (50%+), Adults (40%); ²²
      
      
    • Baltimore, 2003- an actual election where some 16 and 17 year-olds were able to vote in the mayoral primary because they would be 18 by the time of the general election (more than one year later). Turnout: 35% of registered 16 and 17 year-olds turned out versus 36% of the general population.²³
      
      
    
    
  
  

http://www.youthrights.org/votetalkingpoints.shtml

[Imran Siddiqui]

Students who took the comprehensive We the People (“WTP”) constitutional law program scored BETTER than adults 18-80 in knowledge of government and politics. See Table below.

Yeah, compare students in a political based elective class (no public school that I know of teaches constitutional law) with the entire adult population!!

[Jaguar]

Ozzy, I love you.

[OzzyKP]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

Students who took the comprehensive We the People (“WTP”) constitutional law program scored BETTER than adults 18-80 in knowledge of government and politics. See Table below.

Yeah, compare students in a political based elective class (no public school that I know of teaches constitutional law) with the entire adult population!!

I don't know why you are laughing.

The premise we are arguing is that if the voting age were lowered, students would be voting for the first time while they were in school and taking classes like the one above. This would prepare them to be better educated and competent voters then the public at large.

It looks as though you've conceeded that point. I thank you for that.

[Imran Siddiqui]

The premise we are arguing is that if the voting age were lowered, students would be voting for the first time while they were in school and taking classes like the one above.

How many students in the school took classes like that? We had students in our school that were turning 18 in their senior year. We had NO manditory constitutional law class. We had an ELECTIVE politics class. Its funny you assume that school will start manditory constitutional law classes if kids get to vote at earlier age!

And yeah, a class of kids who are interested in politics enough to take an elective class about politics & constitutional law will probably know more than if you take every adult in the country... though if you can't see you are comparing apples and oranges... well, then there is no hope for you.

Are you advocating a voting test?

[Kidlicious]

Let's let our pets vote.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by OzzyKP
Youth Want the Right to Vote and Will Turnout

Hey, them footnotes not working!

[GePap]

So the evidence are a few limited case sutdies of foreign cities from years ago, and in some of the cases the turnout difference being at best minimal? (1% more, wow...)? And the most revelant example you have, the one from Baltimore, has turnout the same as general turnout, equally pathetic. Lords.

Oh, and I am not counting "mock elections", as I assume the students voted in the same place they go to daily, meaning the myriad excuses not to vote did not present themselves.

And Imran is correct about the comparitive sample about elective law students and the general public to be utterly insane. Its like saying that 16 year olds should be allowed to be doctors because 16 year olds taking AP Biology know more about biology than the general adult population...

[Darius871]

Originally posted by GePap
And Imran is correct about the comparitive sample about elective law students and the general public to be utterly insane. Its like saying that 16 year olds should be allowed to be doctors because 16 year olds taking AP Biology know more about biology than the general adult population...

[Bill3000]

A great amount of teenagers online are more willing to think that Intelligent Design has merit be cause they are ignorant of the scientific method and tend to believe in a form of nihilism.

That population isn't worth allowing the right to vote.