The creeping influence of OzzyKP continues to spread...

[Wycoff]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
The thing is, for issues like this, you need to draw an arbitrary line somewhere. So this simply isn't about a question about rights, but about the best place to draw such a line.

I think the line is arbitrarily drawn at the perfect age. 18 is the age that the average person graduates from high school.
Presumably, the high school graduate is expected to have the basic level of education necessary to be a functioning member of society. What better way to commemorate that passage into citizenship than to reward people with the right to vote?

Can are there some 15 year olds out there better able to cast a rational vote than some 18 year olds? Of course. However, it's much more cost efficient to set a bright line limit than testing each individual's voting attitude to determine their worthiness as voters.

I'm with Sava here. If you're worried about the living quality of minors, then focus on things like poverty and better education rather than on voting rights. They'll get voting rights at 18. Waiting two years won't ruin their lives. Growing up impoverished and attending a terrible school system... that's what will ruin many childrens' lives.

[Jon Miller]

noting that a large number of those in highschool are starting their lives (work, children, taking care of their own needs, sometimes even marriage) I think that 14 might be a better age...

JM

[Wycoff]

Originally posted by OzzyKP
And any responsible husband took his wife's interests into account when casting his ballot 100 years ago.

Gimmie an argument that hasn't been tried and refuted decades ago.

A woman would never become a man, and thus would never get a chance to vote. If her husband wasn't keeping her best interests in mind, then she could never go to the ballot box

Almost every child will reach the age of 18 and get all the rights and responsibilites that accrue to being a citizen. If their parents aren't respecting their needs, then they can vote against their parents at 18.

Concerned that old people are ruining the country? Rally the 18-30 age group to vote against them. Surely issues important to 17 year olds will be represented by 18 year olds.

[Apocalypse]

Well, the idea is that just by lowering the voting age you would get people interested in voting earlier. There would also just be a larger pool of people to try to get a vote from. Right now the whole under 30 singles crowd is not pandered to at all.

[Wycoff]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
noting that a large number of those in highschool are starting their lives (work, children, taking care of their own needs, sometimes even marriage) I think that 14 might be a better age...

JM

Oh JM, you and your crazy hometown full of drunken 8 year olds and married 14 year olds...

You're still in cumpolsory schooling when you're 14. Don't you think that education should be even part of the equation?

[Wycoff]

Originally posted by Apocalypse
Well, the idea is that just by lowering the voting age you would get people interested in voting earlier. There would also just be a larger pool of people to try to get a vote from. Right now the whole under 30 singles crowd is not pandered to at all.

If they're not pandering to 18-30, why would they start pandering to17-30? It's ridiculous to argue that the 17 year olds are brimming with political activism, only to have it snuffed out the moment they turn 18. If the youth of the country was so interested in voting at 17, then they'd do it when they turned 18.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
There is quite an obvious difference between age and race & sex. The fact that everyone goes through minority age, while few people go through minority race and few people in power go/went through minority gender. Shouldn't it be more telling that these people have 'walked a mile in their shoes' for young people and have these laws?

Exactly.

Age is transiatory. It changes of its own accord. You will be 15 to 18 for only 3 years of your entire life.

Sex and Race can only be changed, if changed at all, through drastic procedures that are irrelevant to 99% of the population. To compare age then to sex or race is silly.

When I was 16 I did not think 16 year olds should have the right to vote, even if then I knew more about politics than most American adults.

Besides, what is the point of having 16 year olds vote when 18-21 year olds barely show up to the polls?

[GePap]

Originally posted by Wycoff


If they're not pandering to 18-30, why would they start pandering to17-30? It's ridiculous to argue that the 17 year olds are brimming with political activism, only to have it snuffed out the moment they turn 18. If the youth of the country was so interested in voting at 17, then they'd do it when they turned 18.

Very true.

I have voted in almost every election I have had the chance to vote in since turning 18. MOst of my peers do not vote. I really can;t see 16 and 17 year olds voting in greater numbers than 18 year olds, and the turn out amongst 18 year olds is pathetic.

[Berzerker]

A. Coercing votes is already illegal.

Heh, you think Johnny Law is gonna bust all the parents in his community who tell their kids how to vote? He's probably telling his kids how to vote.

B. What makes you think the kids would just blindly listen to their parents? (don't parents always complain that their kids never listen to them?)

We can chart religious affiliation nationwide to see if kids generally believe or do as told. If they dont, we should find randomness. Do we really need the chart?

C. To the degree that kids do vote similarly to their parents, they do so later in life as well.

And by then Mom and Dad no longer have custody, the kids have themselves become adults. But I doubt your claim there, we'd never see much change if that were true.

D. This problem can and does already exist between strong-willed individuals and their weak-willed or apathetic spouses.

Yup, and I'm sure there were (and still are perhaps) many married women who were coerced into voting a certain way or not voting at all. Did their coerced votes produce greater morality and efficiency? Nope, 1 a-hole's vote became 2... But since the couple probably have kids, maybe they should have greater representation.

what's the difference between 16 and 15, or 15 and 14?

Time on this planet learning and experiencing life, even the Framers placed age limits on holding office and that was when people didn't live as long.

I think the time period kids go off to college or start work is a logical place to draw our arbitrary line.

[Apocalypse]

I'm not saying they would vote in greater numbers right off. You just increase the amount of people who can be pandered to and you would start seeing more issues they would care about.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Highlights from the youth rights timeline...

2010 - Amendment to lower voting age to 14 passes

2012 - Congress passes bill witholding funds from states that continue to enforce mandatory school attendence

2013 - All government documents now available in "l33t" translation

2014 - "Young/Old Coalition" passes omnibus bill: Social Security taxes doubled; drinking age eliminated

2016 - Medical marijuana legalized

2017 - Acne added to list of conditions treatable by medical marijuana

2018 - Ongoing Iraq debacle makes conscription necessary; draft for 9-13 year-olds instituted

[Imran Siddiqui]

2013 - All government documents now available in "l33t" translation

[Berzerker]

Highlights from the youth rights timeline...

2010 - Amendment to lower voting age to 14 passes

2012 - Congress passes bill witholding funds from states that continue to enforce mandatory school attendence

2013 - All government documents now available in "l33t" translation

2014 - "Young/Old Coalition" passes omnibus bill: Social Security taxes doubled; drinking age eliminated

2016 - Medical marijuana legalized

2017 - Acne added to list of conditions treatable by medical marijuana

2018 - Ongoing Iraq debacle makes conscription necessary; draft for 9-13 year-olds instituted

[Sava]

Originally posted by Wycoff


I think the line is arbitrarily drawn at the perfect age. 18 is the age that the average person graduates from high school.
Presumably, the high school graduate is expected to have the basic level of education necessary to be a functioning member of society. What better way to commemorate that passage into citizenship than to reward people with the right to vote?

Can are there some 15 year olds out there better able to cast a rational vote than some 18 year olds? Of course. However, it's much more cost efficient to set a bright line limit than testing each individual's voting attitude to determine their worthiness as voters.

I'm with Sava here. If you're worried about the living quality of minors, then focus on things like poverty and better education rather than on voting rights. They'll get voting rights at 18. Waiting two years won't ruin their lives. Growing up impoverished and attending a terrible school system... that's what will ruin many childrens' lives.

Well said.


And Ozzy... I find your comparisons to the voting rights of blacks and women to be completely offensive. As other have point out, kids just need to wait what, a few years and they are able to vote. They are not being denied the right in the same sense those other groups were denied. They are not second class citizens or people who are being disenfranchised. They are developing citizens (so to speak). A HUGE difference.

And really... if the voting age is lowered... what will change? Will the issues you talked about go away? No.

If you want to solve the problems you talked about... then fight for those issues... God forbid... vote democrat. Or support some other alternative to the two parties... oh... and libertarian AINT IT

[Flip McWho]

My personal take on this and what I'd do.

Is drop voting age, driving age, sex age, crime age to 15.

Drinking age at 18 (or 20).

Introduce a political education class into the beginning high school level which is then taught ever year following till they leave school. School can't be left (for any reason) before the end of 5th form. Most people turn 15 in that year, whilst entrance into high school is at age 13. So kiddies get two years of political education (meaning how the system works, what the parties stand for (maybe even basic looks at liberalism, conservatism, marxism and whatever else the school may wanna teach). I'd like to throw in a basic entrance into philosophy too starting at 3rd form. This would teach rational argument and maybe have a crack at the arguments behind some metaphysical questions. (like really basic ones, such as whether god exists.) So come voting time they've had at least two years political education and can vote much more informed and won't fall for brainwashing so easily, hopefully.

The reason I keep alcohol at 18-20 is because that wouldn't be set to the maturity level. It would be set to when their bodies roughly stop developing and they become their adult form as such. This is cause its much easier to **** your body up whilst its still developing. Even though a person from 15-18 would be able to drink with parental guidence.