Radio station says Milosevic dead

[Alexander's Horse]

Originally posted by OneFootInTheGrave


in the weird but luckily very fast "twist" in 1995 Croatian forces expelled all the Serbs from 1/3 of occupied territory and the ground was set for Dayton agreement in Bosnia.

How did that happen? It seemed the Serbs were routed very quickly to everyone's surprise.

[Ljube]

Milosevic abandoned both the Croatian and the Bosnian Serbs. In fact, he consented to the fleeing of the Croatian Serbs from the advancing Croatian army.

At that time the Croatian army was much stronger and better organised than it used to be at the beginning, in 1991 and Croatian Serbs and Serbs in general were weakened by complacency and international sanctions.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse


How did that happen? It seemed the Serbs were routed very quickly to everyone's surprise.

there are quite good wiki articles in English on the major operations

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Flash

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Storm

From my point of view, on the first action - Bljesak - or "Flash" in English it was really a test, and it was very hard for RSK to defend that pocket, so that was clear in a day effectively (about 500sq kilometers).

What really happened with the big operation - Oluja - or "Storm" is that Serbs knew that Croats were coming and that Belgrade refused to go into the open war with Croatia. (as I said credit to Slobo for this, as the whole thing would have been much uglier, with eventual results the same) Than the Serbs knew they had no chance ultimately to defend given their 1995 manpower stretched by the very long border comparing to the whole of Croatian Army.

Thus when the whole thing happened they were already ready to withdraw. It was a well organized withdrawal at that - there are suspicions this was "pre-arranged" as well, as it was in the interests of Croatia to get all of the "rebels" out and thus future problems, while the Serbs got out alive with all they could carry, as they were fleeing slowly throught the corridors that Croatian Army left open, in ther cars, tractors etc with all that they could carry away. Those "refugee colons" were left, and were not attacked, so to me it it is easy to accept this was all in agreement, as effectively Serbs leaving were "at mercy" but they were left to leave in peace. I kind of use 150k people figure, as this is the one most acceptable to me, while there are up to 250k people estimates by the "Republika Srpska" side at the time, which I kind of doubt as than there would be a lot more men to defend, and I doubt that they would have collectively given up as they did.

Again IMO - the withdrawal from the Serbian rebel side was almost 100% pressure as well on Slobo to get into the open war, which is what RSK (the rebel serb) leadership ultimately wanted. As in essence all the people fleeing will get into his state through Bosnia and well that was as much pressure as the RSK could create. In a way Croatian side let the army about 40k strong "leave" and Slobo if he wanted could have told them to stay, defend until he attacks and armed them even better + used them if he wanted to go for an "all out assault".

So I would say that the combination of Serbs knowing they are weaker, them knowing it won't be pretty if they fight and lose, + the hope that they will coerce Serbia to go in the war proper and the acceptance or preference by Croats to have them all leave at once all combined to have such a military "rout" and such an exodus.

So all in all "lucky" in the sense that there was not a "proper war" even though there was resistance in pockets during operation Storm... If there was a "proper war" in any case, either with Serbs not leving, or even worse with Serbia itself getting into the open conflict - who knows what could have happened, even that the total death toll from the whole conflict (bit more than 100k dead) could have been doubled easy, as if the war escalated and one side started to win decisevly I doubt there would be stopping either to Belgrade to one side or to Zagreb on the other, so huh... this part of the war probably ended with the least blood shed it could. OK there were unneeded atrocities over the remainder of the Serbs by Croatians after the operation with few hundred killed, but that is essentially peanuts comparing to what could have been.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara

Astrud Gilberto

Very melodious voice talent.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

just to add and put this in a bit more perspective - the Srebrenica massacre happened just 1 month before the operation Storm, so in a way this could have been a much greater "slaughterhouse" if this was allowed to happen, but thankfully the Croatian leadership did not sanction this tactic and it all finished pretty well. Ie those 40k Serb men who left did not end in further war of attrition, the whole conflict was fairly quickly finished afterwards, and the amount of innocent civilians killed was "relatively" minimal. (given 150k Croatian soldiers on the ground that needed to be kept in line, plus 150k refugees, where many of the refugees were potential enemy soldiers, and many in the Croatian Army who had no mercy for the enemy for various reasons, it was potentially very explosive situation)

All in all Slobo should have been given more credit there, when looking at it (attempt to finish the war) where his Serb rebel allies were not ready to give up on time. His main "sin" from my POV was starting it all, and creating the conditions for all the **** to happen (plus he most likely has ordered some/many of that directly too especially the initial advance in Croatia and Bosnia when he counted on his overwhelming military advantage), but unlike his "rebel" counterparts that he created he was ready to finish the war as well, and was ready to sign the agreements but it was only to happen when the losses on the ground made his partners realise that as well, to better take the Dayton deal, than wait to be routed on the ground.

In that light his "intelligence" and opportunism could be blamed for starting the war, but he did not count on "not winning early", after failing that all the allies he has made, and the war he created was partially out of his hands, even thought they listened to their main supplier and supporter, they (the rebel leaders on the ground) did not follow as he wanted all the time so he had a disconnect there as well. All in all scary, and 100k people dead. It is actually incomprehensible, I personally was lucky that none of my close relatives/friends and property was not destroyed and for the most part not even directly "touched", despite many of them being in the war, and the front line being just about 1 km from our flat in Karlovac, but just remembering the "rethoric" of my former Serb friends who bit this nationalistic bull**** at the time make me want to throw up.

[VetLegion]

The Serbs in Croatia almost got away with their conquests. The problem was that they were maximalists - they wanted full independance (or union with Serbia) and wouldn't settle for less.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by VetLegion
The Serbs in Croatia almost got away with their conquests. The problem was that they were maximalists - they wanted full independance (or union with Serbia) and wouldn't settle for less.

I don't think anyone disputes that.

However, IIRC the trial was a bit of a joke. Nobody managed to come anywhere near proving that Milosevic was responsible for war crimes. I didn't particularly like the guy, but that's no excuse for calling him a war criminal (and the idea of Bush and Blair calling anyone else a war criminal is just risible).

Maybe he was, but no one seems to have proved it or even come close. Now Karazdic and that other guy do seem, by most accounts, to have actual blood on their hands.

[techumseh]

I'm interested in how close the prosecution came to proving a case against him. Were they going to have to let him go?

[VetLegion]

Agathon, I agree. I'm not a legal expert, but even to me it seemed like they had a very weak case against Milosevic. I didn't follow the trial (because of its length), so I'd be interested in a good summary.

[Gangerolf]

Originally posted by Ljube
Yes he died. Two weeks ago his request to be allowed to go to Moscow hospital for heart disease for treatment was denied by the panel of three judges and now he died. I guess it was a poor decision by the judging panel.

He had plenty of doctors taking care of him in the Hague, why would he need to go to Moscow?

[Serb]

To escape the treatment of those "doctors" - to survive.

[Dr Strangelove]

Toxicology reports indicate that he was taking drugs that would have counteracted his antihypertension medications. These drugs were probably smuggled in by sympathisers, so his death could be considered suicide. Maybe he had more to fear than we know.

[Gangerolf]

Maybe he took those pills so it would seem like the treatment in the Hague was inadequate, and he would be allowed to travel to Mosow (where his wife and son lives). But that plan went horribly wrong.

[Serb]

"These drugs were probably smuggled in by sympathisers..."

"Maybe he took those pills so it would seem like the treatment in the Hague was inadequate..."



MILOSHEVICH HAS BEEN KILLED

Simple as that.

[Gangerolf]

who killed him? and why?