Radio station says Milosevic dead

[VetLegion]

Originally posted by BlackCat


One of our former foreign ministers, Uffe Ellemann Jensen, had this comment upon hs death :

"At a personal meeting with him he said things that he knew I knew wasn't true".

Despite his intelligence one could suspect that he lived in a world disconnected from reality.

Supposedly he was charismatic, fluent in english, and had a way with people. Most foreign politicians that met him came away impressed.

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by VetLegion


Supposedly he was charismatic, fluent in english, and had a way with people. Most foreign politicians that met him came away impressed.

I'm not sure that you readme right - UEJ didn't like him - quite contrary, and no, it isn't because he is a left winger - actually, the left wingers here probably agrees that UEJ is pretty close to be a fascist

[Alexander's Horse]

Originally posted by Sava


I don't see how you can place all of the blame on him.

well you can't really - but a wise leader does not stoke hatred for his own political ends, which is what he did, and we saw the terrible results. That holds as much for Serbia which was the biggest loser.

[Winston]

Originally posted by BlackCat
actually, the left wingers here probably agrees that UEJ is pretty close to be a fascist

Pardon my French here, but what a stupid comment used to characterize a man to people who in all likelihood haven't heard of him.

[Winston]

And I know precisely to what Ellemann-Jensen is referring. It was the meeting he had with Milosevic in Belgrade in January 1993, when Denmark held the chairmanship of the EU. Ellemann-Jensen relates the meeting and his personal impression of Milosevic in his autobiography, which I have here in front of me. The passage is two pages, quite interesting. I will translate it and post it here tomorrow.

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by Winston


Pardon my French here, but what a stupid comment used to characterize a man to people who in all likelihood haven't heard of him.

Well, my french is probably as good as yours, so I wont comment - I assume that people can recognize a smiley and the stupidity of the accusation.

[Winston]

I have translated the passage from Uffe Ellemann-Jensen's autobiography where he recalls his talks with Milosevic in Belgrade in 1993.

The title of the biography is Din egen dag er kort - oplevelser og indtryk, which translates to Your own day is short - experiences and impressions. It was published in 1996. The excerpt below is from the pages 181-184.

Uffe Ellemann-Jensen, b. 1941 served as Foreign Minister of Denmark for 11 years, from 1982-1993.

He was a Member of Parliament for Venstre, now the largest political party, from 1977-2001. He was party leader of Venstre from 1984-1998.

Domestically - and abroad - he was known as a highly proactive foreign minister, some might say activist. He believes strongly in European cooperation within the EU and other fora, and is a staunch advocate for close transatlantic ties within NATO. Despite representing a small country, he was very much at the forefront at the time of the fall of the Berlin Wall and the emergence of the new Central and Eastern European democracies, pushing hard on the European diplomatic scene for aiding and supporting the new regimes, as well as being a strong advocate for starting the process of integrating the new democracies into the European platforms of cooperation. At the time of the breakup of the Soviet Union, he was instrumental in quickly recognizing and establishing widespread relations with the three Baltic states, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania.

The visit to Belgrade came when Denmark held the chairmanship of the EU, and so Ellemann-Jensen met with Milosevic in the capacity of chairman of the EU Council of Ministers.

---

The next stop on my tour in January 1993 was Belgrade, the capital of Serbia and "remainder-Yugoslavia". I arrived there on Saturday 9th, and headed straight for a meeting with the President of "remainder-Yugoslavia", which consisted of Serbia and Montenegro. President Cosic was a well-known author, who had been imprisoned and tortured by the Fascists. He'd written the Serbian manifesto, which had served as a great inspiration for the wave of Serbian nationalism that had swept across Yugoslavia.

Cosic gave the clear impression of a man who was worried about the situation. He said that the EU needed to give the Serbs more time, and that we were influenced by misinformation and lacking in understanding of the real nature of the conflict. I commented drily that we'd probably already spent way too much time attempting to grasp all the nuances of the conflict, and that the Bosnian Serbs had exploited this to cause unimaginable suffering to the civilian population.

Cosic protested. He denied that Serbia had anything to do with what was happening in Bosnia. He insisted he was "a man of peace". And I told him: "Naturally, I believe you when you present yourself as "a man of peace". But the pen is mightier than the sword, and occasionally the pen will create monsters, who live by the sword. In such cases, the pen must seek to eradicate those monsters."

He looked me in the eye and nodded without saying anything - the man who'd written the Serbian manifesto, which had provided the underlying ideas for monsters like Karadzic and Mladic.

I went on to meet with the President of Serbia, Slobodan Milosevic. The man who today is being accused of war crimes, but who has managed to manoeuvre himself into the position of being a necessary co-player for the international community in its peace efforts for Bosnia.

My job, as given by the EU Council, was to make it clear to Milosevic, that the threat of economic isolation of his country was to be taken seriously. The EU countries - except Greece - were tired of his tricks and beating about the bush, while the atrocities continued in Bosnia. We had discussed the options at the last meeting of the Council in December, and we had agreed that if Serbia continued to refuse playing an active role in the efforts for peace, the existing boycott would be expanded in all respects.

Before the meet I had read everything I could get my hands on about Milosevic. His background, his psyche, his tactics of negotiation and so on. There were some interesting international analyses of those points specifically, and the main conclusion was that one had to approach him strongly and directly, if there were to be any hope of getting him to listen.

So that's what I did. I had been irritated when watching footage from previous visits that EU chairmen and other colleagues had paid with Milosevic, in which they appeared at ease and smiling in his company. That's the sort of thing one does in most situations where a "photo session" is held at international meets - but it seemed totally awkward in the context of meeting with the man who more than anybody had been the driving force behind the Serbian aggression. I had therefore decided not to smile for one single second during my talks with him - and I didn't.

Milosevic started by denying any responsibility for what was happening in Bosnia. He argued that he had no influence over the Serbs there.

I flatly refused this assertion. "Mr. President, I do not believe you when you say this. And nobody else does. As chairman of the EU Council, I must therefore urge you to use your influence with the Bosnian Serbs to get them to participate in peace negotiations. If this does not happen, some have talked of the option of military intervention. This, I hope, will not be necessary. Since it will not in itself solve the conflict or bring a lasting peace. You know, just as well as I, that it is doubtful whether the international community will be able to agree on launching an effective military campaign. But I can guarantee you this: If the Serbs do not enter into peace negotiations, then your country, Serbia, will be subject to economic and political sanctions far more comprehensive than what we see today. You will be cut off from the surrounding world, both politically and physically. You will become pariahs in the eyes of the international community, today and for generations to come."

Milosevic stared at me hard as I delivered this salvo. I perceived a hint of a contemptuous smile as I talked about the presumed lack of ability and willingness on the part of the international community to undertake military action. He thinks of us as being paper tigers, so he does not believe in such a threat. But it seemed to me as if he took seriously the threatening of economic and political isolation.

He said, relatively subdued, that such isolation would be unfair, as Serbia could not be held responsible for what was happening in another country. And I replied that eventhough it would appear to some to be unfair, he could rest assured that it would happen. I called upon him to go to the next session of the ongoing peace negotiations in Geneva, which would start the next day. He refused, and went on to claim that he wasn't even invited. I knew this to be untrue, but he persisted in his claim. So I told him: "If for some reason the invitation has not arrived at your office, I hereby, as chairman of the Council, invite you to come to the Geneva meet tomorrow."

He said that he would take it under consideration, but that he had a very busy weekend ahead of him. The next day, he went to Geneva. So my journey did have one small effect afterall.

[techumseh]

A media report you won't see again.

I can almost guarantee it. This one will disappear:

Media report: traces of foreign substance confirmed in Milosevic's blood
15:10:25 EST Mar 12, 2006
THE HAGUE, Netherlands (AP) - Traces of a drug used to treat leprosy and tuberculosis were found in a blood sample taken in recent months from former Yugoslav president Slobodan Milosevic, a Dutch news report said, citing an unidentified "adviser" to the UN war crimes tribunal.

The report came hours after Milosevic's legal adviser showed journalists a letter the late Serb leader wrote Friday, one day before his body was discovered in prison, alleging that he was being poisoned.

The report was on the text service of the Dutch state broadcaster, NOS. It did not identify its source further.

Dutch doctors conducted an autopsy Sunday on Milosevic's remains, but the results were not expected to be released until Monday.

The tribunal spokeswoman said she could not comment on the news report. "We don't have any information. We simply have to wait for the results" of the autopsy report, said Alexandra Milenov.

Doctors found traces of the drug when they were searching for an answer to why Milosevic's medication for high blood pressure was not working, the report said.

Milosevic was examined last January, according to his legal aide, Zdenko Tomanovic.

The NOS report did not identify the drug found in Milosevic's blood "in a test done in recent months," but said it could have had a "neutralizing effect" on his other medications.

Earlier, Tomanovic said Milosevic had been "seriously concerned" about being poisoned.

His letter, dated March 10, was addressed to the Russian Embassy asking for help.

Milosevic had appealed to the war crimes tribunal last December to be allowed to go to a heart clinic in Moscow for treatment. The request was denied. He repeated the request as late as last month.

Milosevic underwent frequent medical examinations by doctors and specialists appointed by the tribunal and by Serb doctors brought at his own request. Detailed reports were routinely submitted to the judges.

Tomanovic said he saw the jailed Serb leader on Friday at 4:30 p.m. His body was found the next morning, and by 11 a.m. the letter was delivered to the Russian Embassy.



© The Canadian Press, 2006

[Geronimo]

thanks for the translation Winston!

[Winston]

You're welcome, Geronimo.

I thought it gave an interesting insight into the atmosphere and realities of the time when he was in power.

It's just bits of information as seen by one man of course. Uffe Ellemann-Jensen has later characterized the meeting as "prolonged, dramatic and icy".

[Alexander's Horse]

stories like this show how boring CNN can be

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Originally posted by Ljube



Yes. Instead of encouraging Serbs in Croatia to rebel, he would have done a far better job if he had come to some kind of agreement with Tudjman which could have been mutually beneficial. That's something a responsible statesman would do.

But I don't know of a single instance where he made a right decision throughout his political career.

in my understanding of the situation is that he came to "agreement" with Tudjman and that was the agreement that he will split Bosnia up between the two. And I have other reasons to believe this happened other than our (Croatian) current president saying this was the case at the time.

However while Slobo agreed this with Tudjman behind everyones back, I am pretty certain that he thought (as JNA was effectively in Serbian control) that he will agree that Bosnia split while he will actually take whole Bosnia and as much of Croatia as he manages. Thus when the beginning of the war effectively started (*which was war in Croatia, a week of war in Slovenia cannot count, as Serbia couldn't wage war in Slovenia by proxy with Croatia in between) Croat leadership was largely split with Tudjman being on "don't worry this will all be fine" without any action, and the rest trying to support the resistance on the ground for many months whlie the whole thing was breaking and government independant troops largley managed to repel the advancing armies of Serbian paramilitary supported by JNA.

The serbian advance came to a halt about new year 1991/1992... and really not because of than Croatian government competence but mostly because of semi-independant people groups on the ground trying to defend their homes, that were being organized in various ways. It is only after that halt that proper Croatian army was organized which resulted in 1995 takeover of the occupied territories.

Anyhow... the point being is that while I think they agreed, Slobo just used tactical advantage of JNA being on his side and tried to take it all. Even lord Carrington later said (and he was the first negotiator) that Europe basically gave Slobo a "free hand" to deal with the situation, so if JNA + Serbian paramiritaty managed to conquer all this would have been the Status Quo and ex Yu would have been European Lebanon even today, in much worse shape than Bosnia is at the moment. Luckily this never materialized for various reasons (probably in large part in leadersip differences and war coordination between the paramilitaries and JNA + that at the beginning most of JNA drafted soldiers was not really keen on proper war, coming out of "solidarity and friendship" communist induced mentality, so they were not very effective on using the overwhelming military power which they commanded to "conquer territory". When this attitude fully changed it was alredy to late as defense was much stronger than at the beginning)


Anyhow when the dust settled 1/3 of Croatia was conquered, all non-Serbs were expelled from that territory, and a war was ragining in Bosnia. At the "height" of Serb success I think they held about 80%+ of Bosnian territory with 1/3rd of Croatia, but at the end this was not sustainable and in the weird but luckily very fast "twist" in 1995 Croatian forces expelled all the Serbs from 1/3 of occupied territory and the ground was set for Dayton agreement in Bosnia. (as in the offensive the Croats + Bosniaks in Bosnia got almost 100% of Croatian occupied territory + more than 50% of territory in Bosnia, some of which they withdrew from because of Dayton to stay at 51%)... IMO the Croaitan Serbs hoped to get Serbia in a full blown war with Croatia at that time with the 150k+ people withdrawal, but Milosevic didn't take the bite, so credit to him for that at least.

anyhow... the whole game was very complex, but in the end and after 100000+ people dead in Bosnia + Croatia we have a split which could have been done initially if there were not some crazy 19th century ideas of "greater _whatever" and people crazy enough to support those ideas. After all there was only a few thousands of those lunatics needed at teh beginning to actally cause the conflict (and I actually even knew personally some of them, weird as it might be) as after those organized the clensing of the "conquered" territories back in 1991/1992 there was no looking back, and the people whose homes were taken were really in no mood not to defend, and this was it - beginning of 4-5 years of total meyham .

From my perspective Milosevic was most responsible for inciting the whole situation, leaning on worst hardline nationalists like Mladic and Karadjic abroad, but similar others at home too to maintain his "presidency" in Serbia and thus at least sanction (if not outright directly order) the start and the atrocities in the war and military actions which de-facto broke up the "old-style" Yugo via military means as opposed to persueing the diplomatic ones, like when he flatly refused the "Yugo confederation" proposals from Slovenian and Croatian politicians at the time... for all this to descend into flat out war in few months. All in all a pity that he died without a conviction and I can just hope that his death will not further fuel the power of nationalistic fools in Serbia as opposed to progressive politicians who are looking to put the "conquering" episode behind them.


- as for the right decision - if nothing else a major one was not to go into open conflict with Croatia in 1995, as that could have easily become European Korea.

[Alexander's Horse]

thank you for that analysis - the Western media was not very good at explaining what was going on at the time I think because they were afraid of being accused of taking sides.

[VetLegion]

I think that that anegdote by the Danish foreign minister is symptomatic. The harshest threats he could come up with were "we're going to up the economic sanctions, and I really mean it". Milosevic considered EU paper tigers for a reason - that's what they were.

[Apocalypse]

Poly isn't nearly as pro-Milosevic as it was a few years ago.