Is the US substantially "freer" than most of Western Europe?

[Tim_Augustus]

I think it's partly because you can get fined for jaywalking in those countries.

This happens here as well - doesn't stop anyone though...

[binTravkin]

yeah, but here, the police can arrest an entire train of people (literally all 400 people on the train) and detain them for hours if they suspect that soccer hooligans are onboard.

You don't want to hear my example about terrorist suspects, do you?

In Norway where I spend most of my time, people largely ignore red walk lights, and even stroll down the middle of the street, because they expect cars to stop for them. So by that measure Norway must be the freest place on the planet.

Where Latvia stands then by that measure?
Here a walker can and have right to stop several cars, just by being next to a designated street crossing without any walk/drive lights at all.
Oh, it's not so free, actually a walker may not attempt to hold any social transport vehicle (bus, trolley, tram)..

[OneFootInTheGrave]

point is that we are all free, but what I am afraid of is abuse of "freedom restrictions" that exist in all our countries. In the sense, the abuse of the national ID database which could be minor, and could be an issue, which I have no doubt will be dealt with as it will have to be public (ie, affect a large part of the population), but abuse of the "indefinite holding without charge" I am more vary of, as it can be abused against a few (hundred/thusand) people and nothing can/could be done about it because the incentive is too small to change the law which has no merit in the first place. Or loss of right as consumers, or rights to privacy peddled by powerfull lobbies with much more political focus etc.

However overall we (in the developed democracies) are all free on the same level more or less, if nothing else we are like sardines in a shoal hoping that the shark is not going to eat "me" out of the millions for some such limited freedom restrictions. The anti-terror stuff however is scary as the mere holiday destination or race + relatives (thus no provable crime) could be enough to put you into a position which no democratic society should tolerate for its citizens.

[Winston]

Originally posted by Footie Mad
Contrary to popular belief Sweden is not one of the freer countries of Europe, but I'd rather be here than in Belarus.

Popular belief in Denmark excepted, that's for sure. Here, Sweden is regarded as the behemoth image of a restrictive society. I'm not kidding here, I'm actually rather surprised that you would think that popular belief regards Sweden as one of the freer countries. Is there any specific reason why you say so? Are you thinking of the popular belief of Swedes, or others?

[Gangerolf]

I guess you could say that about Norway, Iceland and Finland too; lots of restrictions and taxes on everything good in life: alcohol, tobacco and sugar (maybe not so much in Finland anymore).

[Winston]

But in Sweden you couldn't drive Citroen 2 CV's because they were "too dangerous", or keep Chinese temple dogs because they were "too wrinkled". Slot machines were outlawed sometime in the 70's.

The government tells the state-run media how to specifically, and negatively, label opposition parties during election campaigns.

If you criticize the way the investigation of the Prime Minister's murder is being conducted, a public smear campaign will be launched against you by the authorities, and you will lose your job with the police force.

If you're ever mistakenly arrested for murdering the foreign minister, you're likely to be publicly abused and called a Nazi by the police.

And parliamentarians will seriously debate whether to outlaw public urinals, on the basis that they're sexist and discriminatory toward women.

[Sandman]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
Much ado about traditional freedoms of speech bearing arms etc.

I think whats missing from the discussion is the freedom of social mobility. How do the two stack up?

My guess is the US being markedly less socialistic is going to have more entrepenures but I am merely guessing.

Entrepeneurs aren't the same as social mobility, though. Healthcare and education costs are probably going to set back working class social mobility in the US compared to Europe.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Zkribbler


Europeans have the freedom not to be shot.

Exactly -- we really do not have a need for private citizens to bear arms here in United States.

Europeans have been living fine without the right to bear arms, and contrary to the slippery slope argument used by American arms fanatics, Europeans are dying in incredibly huge numbers to predatory felons.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
Much ado about traditional freedoms of speech bearing arms etc.

I think whats missing from the discussion is the freedom of social mobility. How do the two stack up?

My guess is the US being markedly less socialistic is going to have more entrepenures but I am merely guessing.

It would be interesting to see statistics regarding class and social mobility.

Does United States have a higher poverty rate than western and northern European countries??

[Provost Harrison]

Originally posted by Spiffor
AH: there's that, but there's also the whole idea of "freedom from the state" vs "freedom from abuse". The Anglo-Saxon liberalism, especially the American brand, emphasizes on the former. This is why the US keeps its gun laws despite an absurd homicide rate, this is why the Yanks con't tolerate state censorship but accept private censorship, this is why much fewer Yanks than Euros are outraged by economic exploitation, etc.

In Europe, the law is more often seen as a valuable way to avoid being abused by other people from the society. As such, there's less distrust toward the state's power.

I'm not sure, I think we have a healthy distrust for state too, I know that is definitely the case with the present government in the UK where Blair is deeply unpopular. But the institutions of the welfare state and the safety net we receive where we are protected - that is popular...

[C0ckney]

Originally posted by Provost Harrison


I'm not sure, I think we have a healthy distrust for state too,

i doubt that this is true, especially as we have been tolerating the state's seemingly endless expansion in size, and its ever increasing interference with our lives, for many years now.

[Provost Harrison]

Well they're definitely going to hurt at the next local elections...

[Dis]

and what I don't get, is if Europe is so great, why does everyone come to the U.S.? . I know several europeans living and working in my town.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Dis
and what I don't get, is if Europe is so great, why does everyone come to the U.S.?

Hint: it's not "everyone".

What's attractive in the US is the dynamism of its society: things change quickly, it makes for interesting times. Besides, for an immigrant, it's a whole new world of opportunities, economic as well as social.

However, the US is definitely not the only country that attracts migrants, far from it. A poll conduced last year on several countries in the world showed that Canada was considered the best place to emigrate by most of the countries polled. Australia was well placed too. The US was usually the second or third country that people would advise to emigrate to, except in India and Israel where it still scored #1.

Besides, migrating to the US doesn't mean that you'll stay there your entire life. I know 5 people who left western Europe to work in the US. 3 of them have dropped their US job and came back to France for the quality of life. The other two hope they'll finally go back to London (the man got promoted to NY, and hated every minute of it in comparison to his time in London).

Also, migration goes both ways. Nobody here is claiming that everybody wants to migrate to Germany, yet I've found plenty of non-German westerners during my 3-year stay there. Heck, I even met two Americans there, which is an obvious proof that every Yank wants to migrate to germany In this board, we have several Yanks who are or were in East-Asia, proof that China, Japan or Korea are dream countries for Americans

Finally, migrating is a mindset, at least when you're a westerner and can afford a good quality of life at home. It has much to do with the ability to separate from one's roots, in order to go live a new life full of unknowns. Migrating is a particularly difficult move when you go to a place where the language is not your mother tongue, and where the culture is generally unkown to you. I have the feeling that Europeans are more adventurous than Yanks in this regard.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Dis
and what I don't get, is if Europe is so great, why does everyone come to the U.S.? . I know several europeans living and working in my town.

As Spiff pointed out in the opening of his latest post in this thread, it's not everyone.


Until a census is taken of gay and lesbian Europeans, how can you assume that everyone in Europe wants to move to the United States?

I would think that to gays and lesbians in western European countries, that in their eyes, their home country is more free than United States.