Is the US substantially "freer" than most of Western Europe?

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Provost Harrison
Oh, that is one incident...and that whole holocaust denial is a bizarre Germanic law. And the headscarves thing is French...they are particularly specific examples.

How's the glorification bill doing?

Now what about extraordinary rendition and Guantanamo as counterexamples them?

How about the fact you can hold suspects for weeks without charge?

[Provost Harrison]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
How's the glorification bill doing?

How about the fact you can hold suspects for weeks without charge?

I don't know why you are being competitive about this. Both our systems have failings and are being compromised...it's just silly to try and hold yours as a beacon over ours. But I suppose you'd rather point-score than have some kind of serious debate on the issue.

The former point is a ridiculous law and so open ended as to be very worrying. The latter is a month, Blair wanted three months Thank God he didn't get it. But you must have seen my very vocal opposition to this bill around here - I can't see any value for detaining someone for that period of time without charge...if they are a suspected terrorist then surely surveillance would be more suitable whilst they are free to gather terrorism. But then you have the Patriot Act. So this pissing contest is pointless.

The fact is, on both sides of the Atlantic civil liberties are being worn down...

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
How's the glorification bill doing? How about the fact you can hold suspects for weeks without charge?

Considering that Jose Padilla was held for over 150 weeks without charges despite being a US citizen captured on US soil, I doubt you are going to convince anybody with your second question.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Geronimo
Considering that Jose Padilla was held for over 150 weeks without charges despite being a US citizen captured on US soil, I doubt you are going to convince anybody with your second question.

Such a detention would have been found illegal, hence the admin doing its best to avoid a SCOTUS showdown over it. Can you say the same about the other side of the pond?

[Provost Harrison]

Yeah, they are not allowed to keep someone in custody for over 1 month without charge...too long in my opinion...but hell, at least they can't make up the rules as they go along...

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Such a detention would have been found illegal, hence the admin doing its best to avoid a SCOTUS showdown over it. Can you say the same about the other side of the pond?

Since the SCOTUS showdown was legally held at bay for so long does the system really offer more protection against this sort of imprisonment here than it does there?

[Imran Siddiqui]

It depends. On certain things, the US is freer (for example, freedom of speech). On certain things, European countries are freer (for example homosexual marriages & recreational drug use).

[Alexander's Horse]

Originally posted by DanS


Roo? Specifics?

One very pertinent to where you live is Americans have mental maps of their cities, which areas are safe and which are not, which are for whites and which for coloureds and so on. How can you say you are free when you can't go past 13th street without taking your life in your hands? I remember very well getting detailed instructions on where not to go, and this was only a few blocks from the Whitehouse. It really made a deep impression on me - the capital of the free world is a city of fear, a city without real personal safety, a city where you can't walk the streets without watching your back.

This lack of personal freedom and safety and the consequences was brought out very well by Michael Moore in Bowling for Columbine - in Detroit its civil war and a third world kind of city divide. In Windsor, Canada, just across the river, people aren't even locking their doors at night!

So which is freer as a lived experience? The US or Canada? I dare say its Canada.

[Imran Siddiqui]

This lack of personal freedom and safety and the consequences was brought out very well by Michael Moore in Bowling for Columbine - in Detroit its civil war and a third world kind of city divide. In Windsor, Canada, just across the river, people aren't even locking their doors at night!

You realize if you go the same distance North from Detroit city limits, you'll have people with unlocked doors as well. Moore, of course, neglects to point that out.

In my parents house in New Jersey, I think we only locked the doors when we went to sleep or when the last person left the house. All other times either the side door or front door was unlocked (and we'd have the garage door wide open most of the time as well).

[DanS]

I thought I made it clear that few people live in American cities. 9/10ths of the people in the DC area live outside the city. Of the 1/10th who live in the city, 1/2 of those live in an area that is as safe as any European city.

The remaining 5% live on mean streets that are really mean, and I would prefer to inform you of it, in case you would wander into it, rather than "put the best face forward" and have you uninformed. But the other 95% of Americans aren't exposed to this kind of fear on a daily basis and sometimes only a couple times in their lives.

[Alexander's Horse]

actually I don't recall you warning me probably because a. I was too drunk to remember and b. I already got the warnings so it was probably the same.

I'd be the first to admit my impressions are probably distorted and incomplete.

And I don't mean it as criticism. Its just that these experiences stimulate your thinking on what real freedom is.

Its not like Australian cities are safer - almost everyone locks their doors at night.

[DanS]

I can't believe you actually did your meetings the next day! I was in no proper shape to do any work.

I warned you and specifically mentioned 13th street. I knew that you might not be used to this pattern, which seems fairly unique in the world -- or at least the small patch of the world that I've seen. The history that makes these things so is rather fresh and somewhat out of the ordinary. Part of it is that it has only been 60 years since restrictive racial housing covenants were ruled unlawful and the area was trashed during the race riots in the 60s. A strange vestige of a lack of freedom. It's being healed by time. If you came today rather than a couple of years ago, I would probably give you much less restrictive advice regarding areas to avoid.

But in any event, the US has a lot of different circumstances of living and this portion is very "in your face" to visitors. It's about like having a beautiful mansion with a couple of rusting cars on cinder blocks on the front lawn.

BTW, Australian cities certainly are vastly safer.

[Ecthy]

EcTroll

[MrFun]

Re: Is the US substantially "freer" than most of Western Europe?

Originally posted by Ecthy
Obviously that country was founded a sanctuary of freedom when Europe was still full of absolute monarchies and the like, Britain being the sole exception (Poland died quickly and so did the revolution in France). Until today Americans seem to understand their own country as the freest place on Earth. In some nearby thread SlowwHand expressd his very understanding of the US itself as a place where personal freedom is valued.

But is that still true? I'm not going to troll anyone and talk about Patriot Act or stuff. But if you look at the progress that most Europe has made, and Western Europe in particular, you'll find there are some damn free places there. All this trash talk about how you can go wherever you want and breathe freely and stuff, you can do that here. Not in Russia though.

Beyond the liberal gun ownership legislature, how would the United States of today be any freer than Europe?

This kind of question depends on who you're asking and what perspective they have.

For instance, for many gay Americans, when they look at some Western European countries, they would conclude that gays in those countries are more free than here in United States.

[The Mad Monk]

Originally posted by Dis
germany isn't

when will they let nazis run around proudly again.

Nazis never run, they goose step.

That's what cost them the war in the end.