Where is Asher's Mac Attack?

[Asher]

Originally posted by Whaleboy
Your thread singing the praises of OSX seems to contradict that sentiment Asher.

It didn't sing the praises, it identified some strong points and some places they tried to innovate (which they can do because of their small userbase).

It's still frustrating to use. The problem is familiarity.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Oncle Boris
So now you blame people for drawing generalizations?

It's not a generalization, it's something completely unrelated.

[Whaleboy]

It's still frustrating to use. The problem is familiarity

In other words, you're making no judgements about the quality of the software, your judgement of "frustrating" is simply a measure of how close it is to that with which you are familiar.

It's an entirely meaningless statement unless you want to tell the world how computers make you feel .

[Asher]

Originally posted by Whaleboy


In other words, you're making no judgements about the quality of the software, you're judgement of "frustrating" is simply a measure of how close it is to that with which you are familiar.

It's an entirely meaningless statement unless you want to tell the world how computers make you feel .

Thank you for getting the point. Gold star for you.

(Note: look at what I made the comment in reply to, then apply what you just said to it)

[Whaleboy]

Agathon made no indication as to what was making him want to pull his hair out, you seemed to have latched onto "frustrating" and then used OSX's unfamiliarity as your premise. Is is more than reasonable to take that as your argument, and Agathons as another argument entirely.

[Asher]

Of course he didn't make the indication, I was making it for him. When you're used to one OS and its behavior, using another OS becomes frustrating.

You're starting to get very grating with your pseudo-intellectual, but dumbass, commentary in threads.

[Whaleboy]

When you're used to one OS and its behavior, using another OS becomes frustrating.

Why so? I can understand that in a CLI but GUI's were invented to overcome that problem! I use my Windows box ~90% of the time (and to an extent, prefer the interface) but my Mac Mini poses no problems for me on the rare occasions when I use it.

I can only imagine you find it frustrating because you've convinced yourself you would beforehand .

You're starting to get very grating with your pseudo-intellectual, but dumbass, commentary in threads.

Ah yes, another superb social commentary from Asher . I'm not one to blow my own trumpet, since one should win arguments on the strength of what one is saying, but I've taken critical thinking courses, philosophy courses and I'm currently taking a part-time economics A-level and a p/t philosophy degree (paid for by the company no less ). I think that might just give me a little bit of edge in "pseudo-intellectual" discussions than a compsci grad .

[Asher]

Originally posted by Whaleboy
Why so? I can understand that in a CLI but GUI's were invented to overcome that problem! I use my Windows box ~90% of the time (and to an extent, prefer the interface) but my Mac Mini poses no problems for me on the rare occasions when I use it.

I can only imagine you find it frustrating because you've convinced yourself you would beforehand .

Spatial familiarity is key to efficiently using a GUI. When things aren't in the same places, it hinders productivity and increases frustration.

Once you take a course in interface design I'll hear your arguments on it, but it's clear you're rather clueless.

Ah yes, another superb social commentary from Asher . I'm not one to blow my own trumpet, since one should win arguments on the strength of what one is saying, but I've taken critical thinking courses, philosophy courses and I'm currently taking a part-time economics A-level and a p/t philosophy degree (paid for by the company no less ). I think that might just give me a little bit of edge in "pseudo-intellectual" discussions than a compsci grad .

I say "psuedo-intellectual" because it's clear you're not, but you've taken courses and try to think you are.

It becomes obvious in situations like this where you miss the obvious and still try to argue like an intellectual. It's what you get when you've got people who genuinely consider themselves an intellectual and try to debate topics they know nothing about using "critical thinking" and "philosophy" that they learned from lectures. It's nausiating.

[Asher]

I want to say this to reinforce it: just because you study economics and philosophy doesn't make you a true intellectual. Being an intellectual isn't something that can be taught in lectures, being a pseudo-intellectual is what you become.

Agathon and Urban Ranger are in similar boats, for what it's worth. That's why they get their ass handed to them in arguments with regularity, and get on my nerves.

[Whaleboy]

try to debate topics they know nothing about using "critical thinking" and "philosophy" that they learned from lectures.

How strange... there was a thread many months ago which asked who was the best debater, and someone pointed out that I only debate on a subject where I have knowledge, and ask questions on those that I dont. I would ask you to find an example to the contrary.

Agathon and Urban Ranger are in similar boats, for what it's worth. That's why they get their ass handed to them in arguments with regularity, and get on my nerves.

Really? Look at the last few pages of the OT; you're getting systematically pwned! This place is starting to feel like an auction!

If you dont consider a philosophy professor to be an intellectual (all the while, coming from a compsci grad, if you've even grad'd yet...a group of people who to my knowledge hardly ever call themselves intellectuals), then it's a pretty meaningless observation don't you think?

It's rather like saying that you're not a builder unless you're Wren or Brunel, never mind the guy who built your house.

[Whaleboy]

Spatial familiarity is key to efficiently using a GUI. When things aren't in the same places, it hinders productivity and increases frustration.

Once you take a course in interface design I'll hear your arguments on it, but it's clear you're rather clueless.

While I respect the fact that you've undoubtably been trained on interface design, it seems somewhat obvious that a tool on a desktop (the start button on Windows or the dock on OSX) should perform in context of the rest of the environment.

It wouldn't make much sense to include a Start button on OSX, because although it may be spatially familiar it doesn't make sense in the interface itself.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Whaleboy
While I respect the fact that you've undoubtably been trained on interface design, it seems somewhat obvious that a tool on a desktop (the start button on Windows or the dock on OSX) should perform in context of the rest of the environment.

It wouldn't make much sense to include a Start button on OSX, because although it may be spatially familiar it doesn't make sense in the interface itself.

Again, you are missing the fundamental concept.

I'm not saying it makes sense for MacOS X is copy Windows' interface.

I am saying that when you are used to using one interface, using the other interface is unwieldly and frustrating until you become used to that as well. It's a pretty basic concept of interface design. It's why applications on a single OS are urged to conform to the same standards for window design, to take advantage of familiarity.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Whaleboy
How strange... there was a thread many months ago which asked who was the best debater, and someone pointed out that I only debate on a subject where I have knowledge, and ask questions on those that I dont. I would ask you to find an example to the contrary.

How about this thread, for starters?

Really? Look at the last few pages of the OT; you're getting systematically pwned! This place is starting to feel like an auction!

Where am I being systematically owned...?

Links, please.

If you dont consider a philosophy professor to be an intellectual (all the while, coming from a compsci grad, if you've even grad'd yet...a group of people who to my knowledge hardly ever call themselves intellectuals), then it's a pretty meaningless observation don't you think?

It's rather like saying that you're not a builder unless you're Wren or Brunel, never mind the guy who built your house.

I don't consider university degrees to be at all relevant to deciding who is an intellectual. It's not something taught, as I've said (and something you should have caught on to), so why would it be?

I think a good deal of professors are not intellectuals, actually. Especially ones in fields as flimsy as Philosophy, and especially people like Agathon.

And yes, I understand that people who use "intellect" to study are, by definition, considered "intellectuals" by most. I consider "intellectuals" to be actually quite intelligent, not someone who can simply study and regurgitate.

[Whaleboy]

I am saying that when you are used to using one interface, using the other interface is unwieldly and frustrating until you become used to that as well. It's a pretty basic concept of interface design. It's why applications on a single OS are urged to conform to the same standards for window design, to take advantage of familiarity.

And I'm suggesting that this is off-set by the degree of consistency and intuitiveness of a given interface. Consider a computer game like, for example, Unreal Tournament 2004. I've picked one that most people have at some point probably played.

Now before installing, I'd never used the interface, but I don't remember getting frustrated merely because I'd never seen it before and wasn't familiar with it.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Whaleboy
And I'm suggesting that this is off-set by the degree of consistency and intuitiveness of a given interface. Consider a computer game like, for example, Unreal Tournament 2004. I've picked one that most people have at some point probably played.

Now before installing, I'd never used the interface, but I don't remember getting frustrated merely because I'd never seen it before and wasn't familiar with it.

You're confusing internal and external consistency.

It doesn't matter if, when you use an interface enough, you can become familiar with it. When you're doing something such as File management, it is incredibly frustrating to do so when it's pretty different to do the exact same task.

The Finder on MacOS, for example, is not only used as a textbook example of poor interface design in HCI Classes, it's different for the sake of being different -- which is frustrating. Same deal in MacOS X with lacking a task bar. Same deal in MacOS X with not having a start menu, and having a simply weird way of finding programs not on the Dock to launch.

It has been proven by studies that unfamiliar UIs for tasks you are used to completing with a different UI are frustrating until you are familiar with the nuances of the new UI.

MacOS X is frustrating to most Windows users, Windows is frustrating to most MacOS X users. I don't get why you are arguing this, this should be common sense to anyone who can exercise critical thinking.