Where is Asher's Mac Attack?

[Asher]

Originally posted by Agathon
I saved that thread where you said you loved it.

In the context of where it's useful, such as the poor UI design of OS X.

[binTravkin]

Everyone should honestly dismiss your opinion and UR's opinion outright, because more often than not it's way off and completely incorrect.

Dunno about Agie, but you're totally right about UR, Asher.

[Whaleboy]

I've read through this thread again and was going to answer your "points" as I'd do in a thread with Ben Kenobi but it suddenly dawned on me that it would be a waste of time.

You seem quite maladjusted to situations where people may disagree with you and resort instead to social engineering at best (i.e. your performance in the Civ for Mac forum) and red herring ad hominems at worst. I can't think of an example where you haven't added some petty insult to a post in response to someone who has challenged you.

You attack other people and attempt to discredit them without addressing what they're actually saying. At best you'll resort to a d!ck size contest of their qualifications, and at worst you'll end up saying things that ordinarily will earn you a punch in the face. The fact that you abuse the invulnerability you get behind the internet to ruin any chance you might get to have a proper discussion is quite sad in fact.

I can only hope for your sake that you're not such a prat in real life. You might have ten times the technical ability of someone who has twice the ability to listen that you do, and that person will end up being more successful than you.

Read through your posts. There is not one accusation you have made against me calling me arrogant and implying that I'm a blowhard, that could not be made far more fittingly against yourself. An insecure little boy .

[Nostromo]

Asher, remember that Aggie spent a whole day of his life making that spoof, time he'll never get back. That must mean something. But, no, you can't get past the fact that he called you a gay superstar, and not a gay icon.

[Asher]

I already discredited what you said, and you continued blathering anyway. If you want to argue against the concept of spacial familiarity -> increased usability -> less frustration, then go ahead and do so. Saying "it's not the case for me" doesn't cut it.

The rest of the argument was against you for that very reason -- your argument had no substance, it was dismissed by someone with more experience and knowledge in the field, and you kept changing the argument til it got to what it was.

The simple fact is, and I think this is the fourth time I've said this: if you've used Windows for 12 years and never really used MacOS X, using MacOS X for the same tasks as you do in Windows is frustrating until you use it enough to adapt. If you want to argue that, go ahead, but you'll be talking out of your ass like you usually do.

[Whaleboy]

And you are still unable to say anything without sounding like you've been raped by a can opener!

Furthermore, you have still not addressed my argument that familiarity is offset by the consistency and intuitiveness of the interface. Your only responses so far have been (in this order) ad hominem, "I know more than you therefore I'm correct", and repeating yourself.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Whaleboy
Furthermore, you have still not addressed my argument that familiarity is offset by the consistency and intuitiveness of the interface.

That's because it's a BS point. If it was offset by consistenty and intuitiveness, you are inherently saying that spatial familiarity plays no role in effectively using a GUI as long as the GUI is consistent and intuitive.

Not only that, but to make your point you need to make the case that both MacOS X is consistent and intuitive, of which most experts in the field would very much disagree with you. Apple breaks their own HCI guidelines quite regularly for consistency, they usually rate well behind Windows in terms of consistency and being intuitive.

If you want to play this game, you need to do more than bring rhetoric and expect that to fly. As I said, I have little respect for flimsy faculties and even less respect for flimsy arguments like yours.

[Apocalypse]

Asher debating philosophy

[Whaleboy]

That's because it's a BS point. If it was offset by consistenty and intuitiveness, you are inherently saying that spacial familiarity plays no role in effectively using a GUI as long as the GUI is consistent and intuitive.

Hardly, they're independent factors. Something might be somewhat unfamiliar but incredibly intuitive, so while it is both, it is on balance easier to use.

Likewise, something that is unfamiliar and unintuitive is going to take a while to learn, and will be frustrating. It's not a difficult point to grasp, and it admits yours! I dont see your problem.

Not only that, but to make your point you need to make the case that both MacOS X is consistent and intuitive, of which most experts in the field would very much disagree with you. Apple breaks their own HCI guidelines quite regularly for consistency.

Actually my point was that your observation was too simplistic . The burden of proof is on you to show otherwise, and so I invite you to reference you statement that Apple breaks their own HCI guidelines.

[Whaleboy]

If you want to play this game, you need to do more than bring rhetoric and expect that to fly. As I said, I have little respect for flimsy faculties and even less respect for flimsy arguments like yours.

It's amazing... someone's turning the handle on the can opener even while it's up your arse! An incredible feat! Referring to rhetoric that doesn't exist, equally astounding!

[Asher]

Originally posted by Whaleboy
Hardly, they're independent factors. Something might be somewhat unfamiliar but incredibly intuitive, so while it is both, it is on balance easier to use.

Likewise, something that is unfamiliar and unintuitive is going to take a while to learn, and will be frustrating. It's not a difficult point to grasp, and it admits yours! I dont see your problem.

My problem is you underestimate how much people are creatures of habit.

A windows user will try to minimize and close the window by going to the top right corner of a Window. A Windows user will try to switch windows by looking at the bottom of the screen, or if that fails, ALT-TAB (which doesn't work). A windows user may try to close a window by Alt-F4. A Windows user will look for an equivalent menu as the Start Menu, a Windows user will be unfamiliar with the icons in the dock and will have to mouse over each one to see what it is. A Windows user will be confused by the mixing up of active and inactive programs in the dock.

Again, people are creatures of habit. When doing similar things to what they're used to in Windows on MacOS X, it becomes frustrating because they're implementedly differently.

The consistency and intuitiveness are secondary factors, and occur when the user's spatial familiarity fails. This second added step of having to think to do something that used to require no thinking is where the frustration usually happens.

Actually my point was that your observation was too simplistic . The burden of proof is on you to show otherwise, and so I invite you to reference you statement that Apple breaks their own HCI guidelines.

Easy; Apple's HCI guidelines say the brushed metal look is only for applications that interact with devices (ie, iPod, Digital Camera). In recent versions of OS X, they are randomly applying brushed metal to different applications.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Whaleboy
It's amazing... someone's turning the handle on the can opener even while it's up your arse! An incredible feat! Referring to rhetoric that doesn't exist, equally astounding!

[holds Whaleboy's hand and speaks calmly]
This is an example of rhetoric:

Furthermore, you have still not addressed my argument that familiarity is offset by the consistency and intuitiveness of the interface.

As far as I know this has no basis in HCI, and you don't back it up at all. It's rhetoric.

[Whaleboy]

Thankyou, an actual argument! I agree that it would be frustrating, at least in the beginning, after all, not all computer users are the same. By intuitiveness being secondary, do you mean that it only comes into play after one overcomes the hurdle of the interface being unfamiliar?

[Asher]

Originally posted by Whaleboy
Thankyou, an actual argument! I agree that it would be frustrating, at least in the beginning, after all, not all computer users are the same.

Seeing as that was my point at the very beginning, when Aggie expressed frustration with Windows and I expressed frustration with MacOS X, I'm glad to see you agree.

By intuitiveness being secondary, do you mean that it only comes into play after one overcomes the hurdle of the interface being unfamiliar?

Yes, it's in the second stage of use. The initial stage of using an interface relies on habit and familiarity, which becomes second nature to the user. They will instinctively look for the same buttons in the same places with the same shortcuts. When that fails, it goes to the second stage which involves figuring out how it works -- in which case, consistency and intuitiveness come into play. Other factors, like the organization and presentation of the elements also affect this.

[Whaleboy]

Fair enough. See how much easier it is when you don't act like a prat? Now I'm going to go away with something to think about.