10 Reasons why Gay Marriage is Wrong!!

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


Did you not see where I said health consequences? The issues are well documented. You can expect to chop 20 years off your life just by being a gay man.

retarded posts


Ted Striker

[Arrian]

Paul Cameron Bio and Fact Sheet


Paul Drummond Cameron was born November 9, 1939, in Pittsburgh (PA).
He received his BA from Los Angeles Pacific College in 1961; his MA from California State University, Los Angeles, in 1962; and his PhD from the University of Colorado in 1966. His dissertation was titled Age as a determinant of differences in non-intellective psychological functioning.1

He was affiliated with various colleges and universities until 1980. They include Wayne State University (1967-68), University of Louisville (1970-73), Fuller Graduate School of Psychology [part of the Fuller Theological Seminary] (1976-79), and the University of Nebraska (1979-80).

On his curriculum vitae, he describes himself as a "Researcher/Clinician." According to the web site of the Nebraska Department of HHS Regulation and Licensure, his license as a Psychologist has been "inactive" since 1995.

He is chairman of the Family Research Institute, PO Box 62640, Colorado Springs, CO, 80962-2640. Telephone: (303) 681-3113. Fax: (303) 681-3427. E-mail: pdcameron@juno.com









In the mid-1980s, the gay press labeled Paul Cameron "the most dangerous antigay voice in the United States today."2,3,4 Here are some important facts about him.


On December 2, 1983, the American Psychological Association sent Paul Cameron a letter informing him that he had been dropped from membership. Early in 1984, all members of the American Psychological Association received official written notice that "Paul Cameron (Nebraska) was dropped from membership for a violation of the Preamble to the Ethical Principles of Psychologists" by the APA Board of Directors.5 Cameron has posted an elaborate argument about his expulsion from APA on his website, claiming that he resigned from APA before he was dropped from membership. Like most organizations, however, APA does not allow a member to resign when they are being investigated. And even if Cameron's claims were accepted as true, it would be remarkable that the largest professional organization of psychologists in the United States (and other professional associations, as noted below) went to such lengths to disassociate itself from one individual.

At its membership meeting on October 19, 1984, the Nebraska Psychological Association adopted a resolution stating that it "formally disassociates itself from the representations and interpretations of scientific literature offered by Dr. Paul Cameron in his writings and public statements on sexuality."6

In 1985, the American Sociological Association (ASA) adopted a resolution which asserted that "Dr. Paul Cameron has consistently misinterpreted and misrepresented sociological research on sexuality, homosexuality, and lesbianism" and noted that "Dr. Paul Cameron has repeatedly campaigned for the abrogation of the civil rights of lesbians and gay men, substantiating his call on the basis of his distorted interpretation of this research."7 The resolution formally charged an ASA committee with the task of "critically evaluating and publicly responding to the work of Dr. Paul Cameron."
At its August, 1986 meeting, the ASA officially accepted the committee's report and passed the following resolution:

The American Sociological Association officially and publicly states that Paul Cameron is not a sociologist, and condemns his consistent misrepresentation of sociological research. Information on this action and a copy of the report by the Committee on the Status of Homosexuals in Sociology, "The Paul Cameron Case," is to be published in Footnotes, and be sent to the officers of all regional and state sociological associations and to the Canadian Sociological Association with a request that they alert their members to Cameron's frequent lecture and media appearances."8

Cameron's credibility was also questioned outside of academia. In his written opinion in Baker v. Wade (1985), Judge Buchmeyer of the U.S. District Court of Dallas referred to "Cameron's sworn statement that 'homosexuals abuse children at a proportionately greater incident than do heterosexuals,'" and concluded that "Dr. Paul Cameron...has himself made misrepresentations to this Court" and that "There has been no fraud or misrepresentations except by Dr. Cameron" (p.536).9

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


Kid: It's one thing to reject the argument, but it's Mr. Fun who's making the argument by appealing to freedom of conscience. So if you don't think that makes much sense, hopefully Mr. Fun will eventually answer the questions posed to him.

As for religion, yes, you are part of a religion because you believe in the religion, but what would folks say if you believed in something and did not live what you said you believed?

Again, you have distorted my argument -- it's really frustrating that you repeat the same distortion over and over.

Go back and read my latest reply to the first time you attempted this distortion in the thread -- I explained the contextual use of the word "concscience" already for your benefit as apart from religion.

[Arrian]

LotM,

I see where you're coming from. I disagree, to a degree, but I don't think we're that far apart...

-Arrian

[Arrian]

That's a good point, but it seems to ignore the blunt fact that you can't take care of the kids until you make the kids. And that's part of what marriage is very good at doing.

Allowing gay marriage will have zero impact on how many babies are made, Ben.

-Arrian

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Arrian


Allowing gay marriage will have zero impact on how many babies are made, Ben.

-Arrian

You're wrong Arrian. Obviously, allowing for legal protection of marriage between two gay men or two lesbians will end all propagation of humans.

10 percent is a HUGE proportion of the human population!!

[Arrian]

Gay life expectancy revisited
Robert S Hogg, Steffanie A Strathdee, Kevin JP Craib, Michael V O'shaughnessy, Julio Montaner and Martin T Schechter
British Columbia Centre for Excellence in HIV/AIDS, St Paul's Hospital, University of British Columbia, Vancouver Canada. E-mail: bobhogg@hivnet.ubc.ca

Over the past few months we have learnt of a number of reports regarding a paper we published in the International Journal of Epidemiology on the gay and bisexual life expectancy in Vancouver in the late 1980s and early 1990s.1 From these reports it appears that our research is being used by select groups in US2 and Finland3 to suggest that gay and bisexual men live an unhealthy lifestyle that is destructive to themselves and to others. These homophobic groups appear more interested in restricting the human rights of gay and bisexuals rather than promoting their health and well being.

The aim of our research was never to spread more homophobia, but to demonstrate to an international audience how the life expectancy of gay and bisexual men can be estimated from limited vital statistics data. In our paper, we demonstrated that in a major Canadian centre, life expectancy at age 20 years for gay and bisexual men is 8 to 21 years less than for all men. If the same pattern of mortality continued, we estimated that nearly half of gay and bisexual men currently aged 20 years would not reach their 65th birthday. Under even the most liberal assumptions, gay and bisexual men in this urban centre were experiencing a life expectancy similar to that experienced by men in Canada in the year 1871. In contrast, if we were to repeat this analysis today the life expectancy of gay and bisexual men would be greatly improved. Deaths from HIV infection have declined dramatically in this population since 1996. As we have previously reported there has been a threefold decrease in mortality in Vancouver as well as in other parts of British Columbia.4

It is essential to note that the life expectancy of any population is a descriptive and not a prescriptive mesaure.5 Death is a product of the way a person lives and what physical and environmental hazards he or she faces everyday. It cannot be attributed solely to their sexual orientation or any other ethnic or social factor. If estimates of an individual gay and bisexual man's risk of death is truly needed for legal or other purposes, then people making these estimates should use the same actuarial tables that are used for all other males in that population. Gay and bisexual men are included in the construction of official population-based tables and therefore these tables for all males are the appropriate ones to be used.

In summary, the aim of our work was to assist health planners with the means of estimating the impact of HIV infection on groups, like gay and bisexual men, not necessarily captured by vital statistics data and not to hinder the rights of these groups worldwide. Overall, we do not condone the use of our research in a manner that restricts the political or human rights of gay and bisexual men or any other group.

References

1 Hogg RS, Strathdee SA, Craib KJP, O'Shaughnessy MV, Montaner JSG, Schechter MT. Modelling the impact of HIV disease on mortality in gay men. International Journal of Epidemiology 1997;26(3):657–61.[Abstract]

2 Based on information obtained from the following three websites: http://www.frc.org/ie/important/important0400b.html, http://www.geocities.com/liberalwatch/showtime.htm, and http://www.tcyes.org/page2.html

3 Based on correspondence with Olli Stålström regarding use of our paper by some Finnish citizens to oppose a proposed to legalize civil unions between members of the same gender (website: http://www.finnqueer.net/juttu.cgi?s=80_10_1).

4 Hogg RS, O'Shaughnessy MV, Gataric N et al. Decline in deaths from AIDS due to new antiretrovirals (letter). Lancet 1997;349:1294.[ISI][Medline]

5 Gray A, Hogg RS. Mortality of Aboriginal Australians in Western New South Wales 1984–1987. Sydney: New South Wales Department of Health, 1989, p.61.

Rollin' now.

-Arrian

[Stuie]

Originally posted by Arrian

That's a good point, but it seems to ignore the blunt fact that you can't take care of the kids until you make the kids. And that's part of what marriage is very good at doing.

Allowing gay marriage will have zero impact on how many babies are made, Ben.

-Arrian

Further to that point, babies would continue to be born without any sort of institutionalized "marriage". Marriage is completely unnecessary for procreation.

[Kontiki]

Here's a follow up to one of the citations Ben provided from the Journal of Epidemiology:

http://ije.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/30/6/1499

Gay life expectancy revisited
Robert S Hogg, Steffanie A Strathdee, Kevin JP Craib, Michael V O'shaughnessy, Julio Montaner and Martin T Schechter
British Columbia Centre for Excellence in HIV/AIDS, St Paul's Hospital, University of British Columbia, Vancouver Canada. E-mail: bobhogg@hivnet.ubc.ca

Over the past few months we have learnt of a number of reports regarding a paper we published in the International Journal of Epidemiology on the gay and bisexual life expectancy in Vancouver in the late 1980s and early 1990s.1 From these reports it appears that our research is being used by select groups in US2 and Finland3 to suggest that gay and bisexual men live an unhealthy lifestyle that is destructive to themselves and to others. These homophobic groups appear more interested in restricting the human rights of gay and bisexuals rather than promoting their health and well being.

The aim of our research was never to spread more homophobia, but to demonstrate to an international audience how the life expectancy of gay and bisexual men can be estimated from limited vital statistics data. In our paper, we demonstrated that in a major Canadian centre, life expectancy at age 20 years for gay and bisexual men is 8 to 21 years less than for all men. If the same pattern of mortality continued, we estimated that nearly half of gay and bisexual men currently aged 20 years would not reach their 65th birthday. Under even the most liberal assumptions, gay and bisexual men in this urban centre were experiencing a life expectancy similar to that experienced by men in Canada in the year 1871. In contrast, if we were to repeat this analysis today the life expectancy of gay and bisexual men would be greatly improved. Deaths from HIV infection have declined dramatically in this population since 1996. As we have previously reported there has been a threefold decrease in mortality in Vancouver as well as in other parts of British Columbia.4

It is essential to note that the life expectancy of any population is a descriptive and not a prescriptive mesaure.5 Death is a product of the way a person lives and what physical and environmental hazards he or she faces everyday. It cannot be attributed solely to their sexual orientation or any other ethnic or social factor. If estimates of an individual gay and bisexual man's risk of death is truly needed for legal or other purposes, then people making these estimates should use the same actuarial tables that are used for all other males in that population. Gay and bisexual men are included in the construction of official population-based tables and therefore these tables for all males are the appropriate ones to be used.

In summary, the aim of our work was to assist health planners with the means of estimating the impact of HIV infection on groups, like gay and bisexual men, not necessarily captured by vital statistics data and not to hinder the rights of these groups worldwide. Overall, we do not condone the use of our research in a manner that restricts the political or human rights of gay and bisexual men or any other group.

References

1 Hogg RS, Strathdee SA, Craib KJP, O'Shaughnessy MV, Montaner JSG, Schechter MT. Modelling the impact of HIV disease on mortality in gay men. International Journal of Epidemiology 1997;26(3):657–61.[Abstract]

2 Based on information obtained from the following three websites: http://www.frc.org/ie/important/important0400b.html, http://www.geocities.com/liberalwatch/showtime.htm, and http://www.tcyes.org/page2.html

3 Based on correspondence with Olli Stålström regarding use of our paper by some Finnish citizens to oppose a proposed to legalize civil unions between members of the same gender (website: http://www.finnqueer.net/juttu.cgi?s=80_10_1).

4 Hogg RS, O'Shaughnessy MV, Gataric N et al. Decline in deaths from AIDS due to new antiretrovirals (letter). Lancet 1997;349:1294.[ISI][Medline]

5 Gray A, Hogg RS. Mortality of Aboriginal Australians in Western New South Wales 1984–1987. Sydney: New South Wales Department of Health, 1989, p.61.

[Arrian]

Anybody surprised that the authors of the studies Ben has been using are Christian fundy whackjobs, or that the studies have been mischaracterized by Christian fundy whackjobs?

-Arrian

[Arrian]

Heh, beat ya to it, Kontiki

Wasn't hard to find, was it?

-Arrian

[Kontiki]

D'oh! X-posted with Arrian. Still bears repeating, though, since it's from the same source Ben used!

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Stuie


Further to that point, babies would continue to be born without any sort of institutionalized "marriage". Marriage is completely unnecessary for procreation.

yahbut if you want kids to be reared in stable households (ie ones with two adults, the same two adults) it has certain merits. Not that it insures stable households, or that theyre impossible without it.

[Ben Kenobi]

Go back and read my latest reply to the first time you attempted this distortion in the thread -- I explained the contextual use of the word "concscience" already for your benefit as apart from religion.

And I asked two questions pertaining to freedom of conscience.

1. Conversion
2. Adopt beliefs over time.

This is what happens to things that are protected under freedom of conscience. And you have not addressed either question at all!

How is it a distortion to say that you have appealed to freedom of conscience?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Arrian
Anybody surprised that the authors of the studies Ben has been using are Christian fundy whackjobs, or that the studies have been mischaracterized by Christian fundy whackjobs?

-Arrian

actually to be fair, the fact that they didnt intend it for prescriptive purposes, hardly shows that its incorrect to do so. Weve come up with some arguments here why it is, but they dont present any (other than that the numbers have changed) in the item you quoted.