10 Reasons why Gay Marriage is Wrong!!

[MrFun]

Hey BK, I have a strange question for you.


Do you like apples?

[Ming]

Originally posted by MrFun
I just can't believe you're a Republican.

I'm really a "moderate repubican" and some would even call me a libertarian (on all those stupid political tests, I'm usually half way between the two)

I'm liberal on social issues, yet conservative on fiscal and global issues.

In this case, we are talking some basic human rights.
While some people may not approve of such a lifestyle, I don't understand why their rights should be limited because of it.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Ming

I'm liberal on social issues, yet conservative on fiscal and global issues.

It's good to know that there are a large number of Republicans who do not kiss the ass of right-wing religious nuts.

[Ben Kenobi]

Yup. You don't know, so you just pull something out of your ass.

Hence the question. How would one explain artificial insemination in a way that would be meaningful to an 8 year old? You've offered me no answer despite your claim that of course lesbian parents have thought this through. And you're the one calling me arrogant for asking you to explain your answer?

[Ben Kenobi]

It all comes down to wanting them to change, because homosexuality is bad. Why is it bad, Ben? I'm bettin' we're back to religion there.

Did you not see where I said health consequences? The issues are well documented. You can expect to chop 20 years off your life just by being a gay man.

[Ben Kenobi]

Kids accept as normal what is presented as normal. At very early ages children will accept that one person has a mom and no dad, a dad and no mom, two moms, two dads, or even more in the cases of remarriages. They don't think there's anything odd about that since they don't have anyone telling them there is anything wrong with that

Where have I said they would have thought their own arrangement to be wrong? If they are taught that they have a father in school, something that will not be obvious to someone raised by lesbians, that will pose questions for the child. They will want to know where their father is, and why they don't have a father. Yes, I agree they will see other family arrangements, which is also going to spark questions as to why they don't have a dad.

Bottom line is that its her business how she handles it with her children.

Never said it wasn't. I am just outlining some of the effects that these policies have upon the children whom we are experimenting. It is the issue of people who are trying to decide what they are going to do with adoption in general, and they have every right to ask these hard questions as to what it will be like for these children.

[Arrian]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi

Hence the question. How would one explain artificial insemination in a way that would be meaningful to an 8 year old? You've offered me no answer despite your claim that of course lesbian parents have thought this through. And you're the one calling me arrogant for asking you to explain your answer?

Parents have to explain all sorts of things to young children. How do you explain normal "mommy & daddy doin' it insemination" and childbirth in a way that would be meaningful to an 8 year old? Perhaps you simplify it, eh? Hell, I don't even remember what my parents said. Anyway, I don't see how it's really any more or less difficult to explain, Ben.

Plenty of kids grow up in families that are, in one way or another, different than "normal" families (which, in my experience, are a bit of a phantom - everybody's family is wierd in some way). My dad is 22.5 years older than my mom. They have been happily married for over 30 years. Growing up I saw this as perfectly fine, but was also aware that it was abnormal. This did not cause me trauma.

And that's NOT the part I was accusing you of arrogance over.

...

Did you not see where I said health consequences? The issues are well documented. You can expect to chop 20 years off your life just by being a gay man.

Cite? 20 years? I haven't seen the statistics but that seems high. Second, what about lesbians? Third, and more importantly, even if your 20yrs figure is (currently) true, it gets a big "so what" from me, because I reject your basic belief that gay people choose to be gay. Health risks can be managed w/o telling people to deny who they are. edit: Fourth, how does allowing gay marriage have a negative effect on these health risks you refer too? As if keeping gays from marrying is gonna make their sex lives safer?? Does. Not. Compute.

-Arrian

[Ben Kenobi]

Many people have children without marriage and many gay couple would have children through artificial means or adoption if extraneous barriers were not placed in their way.

If kids are the benefit of marriage (your assertion, not mine) lets let all the gay people get married and start adopting

No, not the sole benefit, one of the benefits of marriage. However, I'm surprised you don't see the difference between adoption and between making your own. With adoption you can't increase the number of young folks, you are making sure the folks that you have will be properly looked after. That natural generation I think is one of the primary justifications for why the government has an interest in supporting marriage between one man and one woman.

[Arrian]

However, I'm surprised you don't see the difference between adoption and between making your own. With adoption you can't increase the number of young folks, you are making sure the folks that you have will be properly looked after.

Indeed, and we already produce many more young ones than we properly look after, Ben.

People breed just fine w/o the government really playing any sort of role. I think that benifits for both breeding and taking in the castaway offspring of others makes sense.

-Arrian

[Ben Kenobi]

Cite? 20 years? I haven't seen the statistics but that seems high. Second, what about lesbians? Third, and most importantly, even if your 20yrs figure is (currently) true, it gets a big "so what" from me, because I reject your basic belief that gay people choose to be gay. Health risks can be managed w/o telling people to deny who they are.

It is true, I've seen it in many places, and I'm rather surprised you haven't. As for lesbians, there are health consequences beyond std's, including increased rates of drug and alcohol abuse. We have heard that they are the result of a 'intolerant' society, but you will see these just as much in San Francisco as you will see them elsewhere.

In 1994, an obituary study revealed that the median age of death for homosexual males was 42 and for lesbians was 49. Source: Cameron, Playfair, Wellum, " The Longevity of Homosexuals: Before and After the AIDS Epidemic, " Omega Journal of Death and Dying," 1994.

You are quite right, that people, if they cannot change the argument that they suffer goes from one of changing their behaviour to managing their suffering. That's the same stream I followed.

However, here's the problem I kept running into. We believe people have control over their sexual desires. They can choose not to have sex. If we believe that people are born gay, yet maintain that they have control over their desires, how can we reconcile these ideas?

What does it mean to be born gay? That's why I found the argument that they have these desires to make so much sense, they desire men, but that does nothing to remove the fact that they choose to act on their desires.

The only other option is to say that people do not have control over their sexual desires, and thus those who are born with these desires have no choice but to act on them.

[Ben Kenobi]

Indeed, and we already produce many more young ones than we properly look after, Ben.

People breed just fine w/o the government really playing any sort of role. I think that benifits for both breeding and taking in the castaway offspring of others makes sense.

Actually, the situation is just the opposite. The government has intervened to discourage people from having children, and we are seeing the effects of these policies. If you believe that people do just fine without the government playing any role, then why all the government support for family planning?

[Ben Kenobi]

Frankly thats not your choice to make. I might think that your bigoted and narrow minded ideas will be harmful to your mental health but that does not mean you cannot rermain free to maintain those ideas. IN each case as long as you do not infringe on the rights of others, you have freedom to pursue what you wish.

True. I have no right to go and bar people from indulging in harmful relationships. However, I do have a say when they wish to recieve government spousal support, just as anyone else.

I don't see how gay relationships are that harmful to people's well being. That perplexes me. Lets start with Lesbians. With gay men I understand there can be damage to the rectum in certain sexual acts but that its usually minor, can also occurr in heterosexuals etc etc.

For starters, you cut at least 20 years off your life, and the health consequences extend beyond std's to drug and alcohol abuse.

Also its not for you to judge what a "better alternative" is for another person

Then let the facts speak for themselves, and let people draw their own conclusions.

[Fake Boris]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
For starters, you cut at least 20 years off your life, and the health consequences extend beyond std's to drug and alcohol abuse.

So gays are alcoholics and drug addicts?

[Ben Kenobi]

These most definitely apply to religion, but they can also apply to other aspects of the experience of living as a human being.

The analogy is apt. You are defending your own rights along the same lines as those who defend religion.

However, you never dealt with my two arguments. If in fact your 'right to self-affirmation' is based upon the right to conscience, then it cannot be an innate trait. You choose to follow a religion, you choose a philosophy in which to order your life around. You are not born with it.

Secondly, you can change your ideas, your conscience. I by no means am saying that this is easy, I am saying that it is possible. People convert from religions, they can choose not to be gay.

[Ben Kenobi]

So gays are alcoholics and drug addicts

Sadly, they are more likely to suffer from both.