"The dramatic wish of Romanians... was to be occupied by Americans, not Russians"

[Spiffor]

I seem to remember Poland actually waging war against the nazis...

Oh, and against the USSR at the same time...

[Kontiki]

Well there you go - dirty Poles deserved everything the USSR could do to them and more. How dare they resist the benevolence of great Soviet state.

[Serb]

Re: Re: Re: Re: "The dramatic wish of Romanians... was to be occupied by Americans, not R

Originally posted by Spiffor

I guess the same can be said of Poland and the Czech Republic?

I guess this thread is about Romania.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Kontiki
You don't understand, Spiffor - the Nazi's and associated allies were really, really bad. That means that anything the Soviets did was perfectly justified and never reprehensible.

You don't understand, Kontiki - this thread is about the dramatic wish of Romanians of being occupied by Americans, not Russians and about why 60 years ago they prefered American occupation over Soviet.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Spiffor
I seem to remember Poland actually waging war against the nazis...

Oh, and against the USSR at the same time...

Really? Then please, remind me when exactly Poland declared war over USSR.

[Spiffor]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: "The dramatic wish of Romanians... was to be occupied by American

Originally posted by Serb
I guess this thread is about Romania.

I guess my replies are about this post:

Originally posted by Serb
Without Romanian attack and the following occupation of Soviet territory, there would be no Soviet "occupation" of Romania. And after what Romanians done on Soviet territory, they should praise all their goods that Soviets didn't do the same with them.

Poland and Czech show quite clearly that the USSR was decided to satellize as many countries close to its borders as possible after WW2 (and Poland actually shows that the thinking already existed before WW2). To the point that the USSR occupied even countries that had fought against the nazis and lost.

Whether the USSR was justified or not in doing so is not my concern here. My concern is that you are saying something completely false when you pretend that Romania wouldn't have been occupied by the USSR, had it not allied with nazis. And you know it (what with you defending the policy of buffer states). I called you on that.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Serb
Really? Then please, remind me when exactly Poland declared war over USSR.

I didn't know that a country had to declare war in order to defend against an invader:

On September 17 the Red Army marched its troops into Poland and co-ordinated its movements with German forces[5]. After brief negotations between Stalin and Hitler, the Soviet advance halted, roughly at the Curzon Line, as determined by final negotiations between both states[6]. German and Soviet forces held a joint victory-parade in Brest-Litovsk on 23 September 1939, led by Semen Moiseevich Krivoshein and by Heinz Guderian

Source: Wikipedia
Indeed, the Sovs didn't issue a declaration of war, so I guess the two-front war never existed in Poland

[Serb]

Originally posted by Kontiki
Well there you go - dirty Poles deserved everything the USSR could do to them and more. How dare they resist the benevolence of great Soviet state.

1) Dirty Poles surely weren't saints. In 1920 they attacked USSR and took Western Ukraine and Beylorussa (exactly the same lands Soviets returned in 1939) and later divided Czechoslovakia on pair with Hitler.

2) Do you think dirty Soviets deserved everything USA and NATO could do to them (another even more devastating war, another tens of millions dead Russians perished in nuclear fire)?
I'm talking about the same dirty Soviets who destroyed 3/4 of Nazi war machine and who paid the highest price for the victory over nazism. New war - that is what could be your gratittude for our war effort during WW2, in case if we were weak enough. After WW2 we were in grave danger again. US was the source of this threat and we needed all allies, all resources and all possible protection we could find. Russia wouldn't surrvive another war and I would never exist as millions of other Russians, in case if there was no counterpart to NATO, there were no buffer zones, USSR would be weaker and US would attack us and "finally liberate" us.
Thank you very much but Russians want to live too, and when they are backed to wall, they use all possible means to protect themselves including entire buffer countries.

[Serb]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: "The dramatic wish of Romanians... was to be occupied by American

Originally posted by Spiffor


I guess my replies are about this post:

Originally posted by Serb
Without Romanian attack and the following occupation of Soviet territory, there would be no Soviet "occupation" of Romania. And after what Romanians done on Soviet territory, they should praise all their goods that Soviets didn't do the same with them.

Poland and Czech show quite clearly that the USSR was decided to satellize as many countries close to its borders as possible after WW2 (and Poland actually shows that the thinking already existed before WW2). To the point that the USSR occupied even countries that had fought against the nazis and lost.

You forget about the first country who leaved the Axis and DOW Germany. It was Finland in 1944. USSR decided to not finnish them of, but insted offered them to leave the AXIS and join the war on the Soviet side. No annexation, no pupet state, only switching of sides. Guess why?
As for Poland, that actually shows nothing, because it was resolution of territorial disput. Poland stole those lands from USSR after its unprovoked attack 20 years ago that. USSR took nothing except territories Poland stole from Soviets earlier.
As for Czech, as far as I know they have capitulated and actually never waged war vs. nazis, despit USSR confirmed that it will fulfill its obligations to Czechs even if France and GB will betray them.

Whether the USSR was justified or not in doing so is not my concern here. My concern is that you are saying something completely false when you pretend that Romania wouldn't have been occupied by the USSR, had it not allied with nazis. And you know it (what with you defending the policy of buffer states). I called you on that.

You didn't get it.
What I meant was:
Had Germany and its minions (and first of all, its most loyal ally - Romania) didn't attack USSR, there would be no Soviet "occupation" later.

Furthermore, I can add as well, that that wouldn't happen if GB, France and Poland agreed to form an anti-Hitler alliance as USSR suggested amny times. But insted GB and France keep feeding Hitler with new lands. First Rhein land, then Austria, then Czechslovakia. Poland even grabbed parts of it like a "greedy hyena" (c) Churchill. Guess why GB and France keep growing Hitler like a battle tamagochi? Why they refused all Soviets suggestions to prevent strengthening of Germany?
Because they don't need them. They wanted Hitler to attack the USSR. It's a classical British scheme. But this time it didn't work, because dirty Stalin won this diplomatic game. Instead of war of Germany and other minions including Poland vs. USSR, Soviets got war of Germany vs. GB, France and Poland. Stalin won time and some buffer territory, however he couldn't know that Germans made a revolution in warfare, that Poland and France will fall so fast. Anyhow it was a diplomatic victory for USSR, important for its survival.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Spiffor

I didn't know that a country had to declare war in order to defend against an invader:

That's what countries do when they are under attack - they go to the UN or League of Nations and say there: "Look, we are under attack!". It's pretty normal behavior - that's what Finns did when Soviets invaded them in 1939 and as result USSR has been expeled from the League of Nations as country agressor. Iraq tried to do the same in UN (I mean - worlwide recognition of American agression). When Polish government declared that their country is a victim of Soviet agression and thus it is in war with USSR?

On September 17 the Red Army marched its troops into Poland and co-ordinated its movements with German forces[5]. After brief negotations between Stalin and Hitler, the Soviet advance halted, roughly at the Curzon Line, as determined by final negotiations between both states[6]. German and Soviet forces held a joint victory-parade in Brest-Litovsk on 23 September 1939, led by Semen Moiseevich Krivoshein and by Heinz Guderian

Source: Wikipedia
Indeed, the Sovs didn't issue a declaration of war, so I guess the two-front war never existed in Poland

I'll be brief:
1) Wikipedia sucks.
2) On Sept 17, Polish state collapsed, 'cause already at Sept 3 Polish government betrayed its own army, its own people and run from the country with tails between their legs.
3) The term "War" assume fighting, right? There were no fullscale battles between Soviet and Polish troops. Actually Soviet troops were welcomed by Ukranians and Byelorussians (inhabitants of those lands) as liberators - with flowers.
4) This parade thing is a fantasy of one crazy fantasy writer. The story travels from one source to another, but nobody actually never seen any documents which prove it's true.
5) It doesn't important whether Sovs issued a declaration of war or not. What is more important whether Polish government declared that their country is under attack and is in state of war vs. agressor or it didn't declare.

[C0ckney]

the fact that you really and truly believe this stuff is the great thing about you serb.

[Saras]

Originally posted by Kontiki
It doesn't matter - the Nazi's were bad.

And please do not forget the vile LITHUANIANS VIOLATING RUSSIAN SOVEREIGN TERRITORY with their pathetic existance.

[chequita guevara]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: "The dramatic wish of Romanians... was to be occupied by Amer

Originally posted by Spiffor
Poland and Czech show quite clearly that the USSR was decided to satellize as many countries close to its borders as possible after WW2

Do not discount the machinations of the West in this. The West wanted the USSR saddled with destroyed and bankrupt countries. Generally speaking, empires loot the areas they bring into their orbit. The USSR built them up, instead. Eastern Europe was a net drain on the Soviet economy.

After having been invaded twice by Germany in 20 years, after tens of millions dead at the hands of Western invaders, the Soviets wanted a little security and to put a lot more territory between them and their enemies.

Consider America's stratgey was to fight WWIII in Europe as well, rather than on our own territory. Never forget you were part of our empire. We may have used a much gentler touch, but we didn't play fair or nice when it was deemed necessary. The main difference is that the Soviets used a sledge hammer where we would use a scalpal.

As far as Poland went, the USSR simply retook territory that Poland had ripped from Russia in 1920. Had the Nazis taken the whole of Poland, we might all be speaking German today . . . those of us still living anyway.

[Barnabas]

I am not a commie at all, I am a practicing catholic and obviously I have a dislike for atheist + state controlled orthodox church+ anti catholic soviet union.

But I agree with Serb here.
I think the soviet union gets critiziced unfairly in some issues.


East europe was far poorer than west europe before ww2, and those years were not of stagnation, those countries were industrialized during the cold war, standard of life improved, and countries such as czechoslovakia and east germany had very high gdp´s per capita under communism.

Those were not just 50 years of stagnation, maybe east germany would have been better without communism, but many communist countries were wealthier for most of the cold war than capitalist Spain, Portugal or Greece (if I recall correclty, almost were wealthier all until eu started pouring subsidies in those 3 countries in the 80´s) a few still had better stats in 1989, and probably without soviet industralization the soviet block countries would have been even poorer.

And obviously those nazi bastards would have prefered USA occupation over Soviet Occupation.

Thats not surprising.

[chequita guevara]

Up until the fall of Eastern Europe, East Germany had the 11th highest GDP (per person) in the world.