"The dramatic wish of Romanians... was to be occupied by Americans, not Russians"

[Vince278]

Originally posted by DaShi
All of them. The world belongs to Mother Russia!

All of the Russian deaths were caused by Russians?

[DanS]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten

It is like Japan would rather have US than Chinese occupation after WWII.

Yeah, a Chinese occupation of Japan was a realistic possibility...

I wouldn't begrudge a man a fantasy or two.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Granted, I understand why they did it, and considering what they suffered, I find it hard to wag my finger at them, however wrong it might have been. It's not like our side didn't committ attrocities as well. We just did it from 10,000 feet in the air.

Che is just making a morbid joke here folks -- relax.



You ARE joking, right?

[Last Conformist]

Re: Re: Re: "The dramatic wish of Romanians... was to be occupied by Americans, not Russians&qu

Originally posted by Serb

1) Russia has a long history of being attacked by the West.
2) Excuse me, was it Russia who attacked Romania at the first place? Was it Russia who long before this attack created special extermination teams whose only goal was to "clean-up" occupied territories from "untermensches"? Were it Russians who hanged, shoot, burned alive or slaughtered in a different way few hundred thousands people during the occupation?
3) Without Romanian attack and the following occupation of Soviet territory, there would be no Soviet "occupation" of Romania. And after what Romanians done on Soviet territory, they should praise all their goods that Soviets didn't do the same with them.

Good kook, have a cookie.

[Last Conformist]

Originally posted by MrFun



Che is just making a morbid joke here folks -- relax.



You ARE joking, right?

Legal or not - how is quite deliberately killing thousands of civilians not an atrocity?

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Last Conformist

Legal or not - how is quite deliberately killing thousands of civilians not an atrocity?

The idea behind bombing cities was not to kill civilians -- civilian deaths unfortunately are often the result.

What Russians did to civilian women though, they carried out with the intent to rape and kill them.

[Last Conformist]

Originally posted by MrFun



The idea behind bombing cities was not to kill civilians -- civilian deaths unfortunately are often the result.

So, what, pray tell, was the goal in bombing residential areas if not killing civilians?

The entire idea of the strategic bombing campaign was to bring about the collapse of German industry and society by destroying factories, communications, and, yes, workers.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Last Conformist

So, what, pray tell, was the goal in bombing residential areas if not killing civilians?

The entire idea of the strategic bombing campaign was to bring about the collapse of German industry and society by destroying factories, communications, and, yes, workers.

The bombing of residential areas -- that, I can agree with you.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Vince278
Bombing a city from the air is an act of war, which was allowed.

The deliberate targetting of civilians was and remains a war crime. Even if the numbers of civilians killed in the Dresden bombings are in dispute (the lowest figure being 57,000 casualties), the deliberate creation of a firestorm in a residential area cannot be waved off as accidental bombs falling in residential areas. The Allies intended to destroy the city. As we all know, it wasn't the only German city to suffer that fate, and Japan got it even worse, even if we don't consider the atomic bomings.

This is not to say, oh, teh evil US and Britain. As I said earlier, the evil and danger of the Nazis made the insane seem reasonable. What we consider damned in hindsight must be seen in its context. The rape and murder of German civilians needs to be seen in the context of a society which suffered terribly at German hands.

And the civilians weren't necessarily so innocent. My great uncle was killed by a German mob after he had parchuted from his bomber. The Nazis actually had to save the rest of the crew from being beaten to death.

I don't shed a tear for the Germans of that generation. Considering for what they were responsible, they were damned lucky the Allies didn't carry out their original plans and completely deindustrialize Germany.

[DaShi]

Originally posted by Vince278


All of the Russian deaths were caused by Russians?

Yes, since Russia will inevitably one day rule the world under its one state, everyone can already be considered Russian. Hail the future Sasha Petrov, our immortal leader for all eternity!

[Vince278]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
The deliberate targetting of civilians was and remains a war crime. Even if the numbers of civilians killed in the Dresden bombings are in dispute (the lowest figure being 57,000 casualties), the deliberate creation of a firestorm in a residential area cannot be waved off as accidental bombs falling in residential areas. The Allies intended to destroy the city. As we all know, it wasn't the only German city to suffer that fate, and Japan got it even worse, even if we don't consider the atomic bomings.

Targeting civilians were allowed in WW2. It reduced the production of the target nation and also reduced their morale and will to fight. Oh, a case could be made for saying it would only make them angrier but the end results (particularly in the case of Japan) showed its effectiveness.

Now that technology has advanced and we are in a kinder, gentler generation the deliberate targetting of civilians is largely unnecessary but still not a war crime according to the Geneva Conventions. Perhaps we can have the GC modified?

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
The rape and murder of German civilians needs to be seen in the context of a society which suffered terribly at German hands.

AFAIK, England, France, and the US did not engage in wholesale rape and murder despite their suffering. I still say Russian behaviour was inexcusable despite any provocation.

[Ted Striker]

pwn3d

[Serb]

Originally posted by Vince278


who introduced the term Iron Curtain - Winston Churchill

Right.

who started the Cold War - Stalin

Wrong.

How many were killed by Russians?

And you think it’s funny?

Keep trying.

We will.

Don't forget our Lend Lease program. Thousands of Americans died sending arms and supplies to Russia.

I was talking about post-war period. Lend-Lease was about destruction of things during the war, not about reconstruction after the war.

and Eastern Europe and the Baltics suffered even worse from Soviet occupation while Western Europe rebuilt.

Was it so hard to get my message?
I’ve said that:
1) Eastern Europe was always poorer than Western Europe.
2) Eastern Europe was much more affected by war than Western Europe.
3) USSR was devastated by war, while USA was unaffected, furthermore WW2 actually made USA richer. USA was the World’s largest economy, while Soviets had to rebuild their own country, which faced the most terrible invasion in human history.

That’s why it’s not really surprising that Western Europe become more prosperous than Eastern Europe.

Capitalism
Communism

Capitalism sucks, but humanity isn’t ready for Communism, yet.
Socialism

Did you say "gentle?"
NATO still exists and so does Russia. There's your proof that we do not wish to attack Russia, despite any appearent weaknesses.

Actually it’s my proof that you want us dead, but still lacks the balls to fulfill your plans.
We disbanded the Warsaw Pact, switched our ideology and accepted democracy, but no, - NATO still exist. Even more, it is growing. You keep surrounding our country with your military bases. If you are so ****ing peacefull, why do you keep increasing your military might at our borders? WHY THE HELL NATO still exist, if Warsaw Pact perished a decade ago?
There is only one answer – you hate us regardless of our ideology economic or political system. You just hate us, because we are Russians. And you will keep surrounding us with your bases untill the moment when you think you can safely destroy us. And the weaker we will be, the sooner this moment will come. Just be honest and admit that.
Currently Russia exist thanks to its nuclear potential, but when you will find the way to neutralize it, for you Russia will become just another Yougoslavia, Afghanistan or Iraq. In 1945 USSR didn’t have nukes, while you, except A-bombs, had hordes of strategic bombers. There were only few problems for you: you didn’t have enough nukes, yet; you couldn’t deliver them to core Soviet territory; Red Army was very strong.
In case if in Poland or Romania were stantioned your strategic bombers with nuclear pay load, insted of Soviet intercepters, you would destroy us, no doubt. We had no luxury of allowing that happen. It was a matter of survival for us, simple as that.

My congratulations to everyone. How's the wife? Any little Serbs yet?

It was my wife’s freinds who got married. It was a damn boring party for me, since I didn’t know most of the people there, so I just got drunk. Next day was the birthday of my freind and I got drunk again. So, Monday was a real disaster, ‘cause I had to work 12 hours. No wounder at evening I was angry as hell and demonstrated my best anti-American mood.
No little Serbs yet.

Again, Stalin.

Stalin ordered to crush and burn and kill anyone on occupied territories? He created special “cleaning teams” to exterminate “inferior locals” and freed-up space for Soviet master rase? He build factories of death with gas chambers for that purpose?

The Malenkov-Ribbentrop pact was actually a diplomatic victory for the Germans. It allowed them to concentrate on attacking the West until they were ready to attack Russia, which caught even Stalin by surprise.

1) It’s Molotov, not Malenkov.
2) Stalin wasn’t caught by surprise. But it’s a very long story I have no time to tell.

[DaShi]

Originally posted by Serb
Capitalism sucks, but humanity isn’t ready for Communism, yet.

Yeah. People still value their lives.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[germanos]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
The rape and murder of German civilians needs to be seen in the context of a society which suffered terribly at German hands.

The Russian rapists didn't care for nationality. They raped at will when they 'liberated' Ravensbrück, a concentration-camp for female political prisoners. Needles to say a good chunk of the prisoners were communists. They were not spared.

Probably they raped Polish, Czech, Slovak women etc. in their villages as well. I would be quite surprised if the rapes only took place in Germany itself.