Abortion!

[Ming]

Yeah... it makes sense to stop it before it becomes a problem. While much can be done against the root problem... the problem will not go away.

What I find completely silly is the Catholic Church's POV... Abortion and Birth Control are both wrong... while I can understand their reasoning behind these positions, they just aren't realistic in todays society.

[Japher]

The Catholic Church? You don't need BC or abortion when all you do is molest little boys

[Ming]

Originally posted by Japher
if you believe a person has a right to have control over their own body than why is suicide illegal?

Personally, I think suicide should be legal in certain situations. A person facing a painful or slow death should have the option to end their life in a matter of their own choosing.

People who commit suicide because they are mentally instable don't fall in this group. They aren't in a position to make a rational decision, and should be given the help they need.

[Arrian]

I have no problem with a person in their right mind deciding to end their own life. It's the "in their right mind" bit that gets tricky.

In the past, we've gotten around that sticking point by saying it's illegal.

I think assisted suicide (in other words, suicide involving somebody else) should be legal but require that several physicians (including a psychiatrist, perhaps... although I don't really buy into that profession...) to agree with the patient.

Plain 'ole solo suicide... doesn't seem to matter if it's legal or not to me... the person who does it is dead and thus beyond the law, no?

-Arrian

[Stuie]

My take:

Abortion is a personal decision between a woman and her physician. It should not be legislated any more than hysterectomies are legislated.

Once the fetus becomes a viable life (able to survive outside the womb), abortion should no longer be an option.

[Gibsie]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
If that life has the DNA of a human it is human.

There are more important things in life than the genetic content of a lump of cells.

[Jon Miller]

did you not read my post?

I said if there are brainwaves then he/she is independent life

it is the dividing line we use everywhere else, why do we not use it here?

Jon Miller

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Ming


And that is your opinion, and you are welcome to it. But some people don't see it the same way. When does life really begin???? There will never be agreement on that.
While you see it as murder or killing, others don't. Who is right and who is wrong?

Pro Choice respects the right of personal beliefs.
I respect your belief... but you seem to want to cram your belief down others people's throats...

No. I want to stop the murder of innocents.

I would have been happy to do so in WW2. I am happy to do so now. I will be happy to do so in the future.

We cram our beleifs down others throats all the time, sometimes for as simple of thing as smoking in bars (now illegal in Prince George's county Maryland). It is part of living in society.

You are cramming your belief down the death throat of every baby you allow to be killed.

Jon Miller

[Ben Kenobi]

What is the time at which a clump of cells becomes human?

Good question. One could draw the line at 2 cells, or 4 cells, or 8 cells, or 1024 cells.

Or one could say that the number of cells is irrelevant to whether one is a person or not, and say that personhood begins at conception. In this you would be correct to say that you were in fact conceived by your parents, and not just a clump of cells was conceived that later became you.

A newborn baby is pretty obviously human. Is a zygote human? Why?

For the same reason we would say you are the same person you were when you were born. You have changed in form, you have grown considerably, you have gained quite a few more skills then you had when you were born. But you are still the same person you were back then.

When we draw this backwards, before you were born, we see the same thing. You grew inside your mother's womb, developed until you were able to survive on the outside, just as you continue to develop after you are born.

This whole process of growth and development starts at conception. Here, the sperm and egg unite to form the zygote which is genetically distinct from either parent. From this one cell, you grow and develop to eventually become an embryo, a fetus, and then an infant, all the way to an adult.

Is a sperm cell "human"? What is the criteria for determining when life becomes human?

A sperm cell is like your skin cells. It is a part of your body, and a part of your father, just as an egg cell is a part of your mother. When you put the two together you have something that is neither your father nor your mother, but a combination of both.

[Jon Miller]

The only reason I didn't vote prolife this last election is that I don't beleive the claims of those who say they are prolife.

And I was worried that those who claim to be prolife, were antilife for those of us who are older.

The world does not need to be the old versus young, we could live where society takes care of eachother, and takes care of those who haven't breathed yet as well as those who have been breathing for a long time.

Jon Miller

[Ben Kenobi]

Antilife for those who are older?

I'm not sure what you mean by that.

I've yet to meet someone who was prolife who also favoured euthanasia.

[Ben Kenobi]

while I can understand their reasoning behind these positions, they just aren't realistic in todays society.

Ming:

I've been pondering over this statement of yours. I have to ask is it realistic for the church to teach that people should be married to each other until death do you part?

I don't think the church is supposed to be 'realistic', I think it is supposed to challenge people.

[Arrian]

It's the government's job to be realistic, though. Not that they do it very well...

Abstinence just doesn't happen. It's been shown that it's a joke. If you take the positions that birth control is evil and abortion is evil, the result you get is a ****load of unwanted children. YAY!

I can at least understand being anti-abortion. I cannot understand being against birth control/sex ed.

-Arrian

[Ming]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Ming:

I've been pondering over this statement of yours. I have to ask is it realistic for the church to teach that people should be married to each other until death do you part?

Having the church teach that people should be married till death do they part is more realistic than teaching that abortion is wrong, but so are contraceptives. They aren't being consistent on their views of sex. They can't give the ole, you only make love to have babies crap, because even the church says that the "rhythm" system is ok... but that the pill or other forms aren't?????

What are they smoking

I don't think the church is supposed to be 'realistic', I think it is supposed to challenge people.

They can still challenge people and be realistic at the same time. IF the church hadn't changed over time, one might be able to use the argument that "the church is the church" and that the times need to adjust to them.
But that's crap... because the church has changed a lot since the early days... It really needs to take a hard look if they want to impact in the future. More and more people are turning away from it. And while some maybe doing so because "god" is not important... but many still believe in God, and want to follow his teachings... but the Church makes it almost impossible.

[Ming]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
No. I want to stop the murder of innocents.

Innocent what? cells?
Again, until we can truly establish what consistutes life, there is no murder and no innocents.

I would have been happy to do so in WW2. I am happy to do so now. I will be happy to do so in the future.

Straw man smoke...

We cram our beleifs down others throats all the time, sometimes for as simple of thing as smoking in bars (now illegal in Prince George's county Maryland). It is part of living in society.

Ok... then you lose already, because you are in the minority on this one

You are cramming your belief down the death throat of every baby you allow to be killed.

They aren't babies until they are viable...
All you are doing is taking away the right or a woman to have control of her own body.

Since your "opinion" is that life starts right away, you are welcome to practice what you preach and force your wife or girl friend not to have an abortion.

But the law also allows for somebody who doesn't share your opinion to make decisions for themselves that effect their own lives.

You think you have the high ground by calling it murder and razing the specter of Nazi's... But it's all just smoke and mirrors.