What does the pope really know about love?

[Arrian]

Pope! Uh! What is he good for?



-Arrian

[Ben Kenobi]

My mother is married to a pastor, but that's not her job
Sure, it affects her but whatever a husband/wife works with has affects on the marriage

True, but I think there are additional burdens associated with being the wife of a pastor. Has your mom said anything about them?

[Illur]

ofcourse there has been situations...
but her feelings has little to do with a pastors right to marrige? i belive my father does what he thinks god wants him to do

[Sava]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


The reasoning behind the position is that a husband has a duty to his wife, and to his family. A priest is free of those concerns and can concentrate on his spiritual bride, the church, and his spiritual family, the parishioners.

That line of thinking is really quite stupid. I'm not sure if that is the reason priests in the Catholic church are not allowed to marry, but that is a pretty silly reason if that is the case.

Orthodox priests, for instance, are allowed to marry (in fact marriage is a requirement for priesthood in the Orthodox church) and they don't seem to have a problem concentrating on their parishioners. In fact, by having a family of their own, I think priests have a greater understanding of what it means to actually have a family. Because how can a priest be part of a community and understand the problems families go through if he himself does not have a family?

The whole celibacy thing is probably why you get the pedophiles in the Catholic church. Whether or not celibacy causes people to go nuts is something I don't know... but it seems to me that the position of trust, the close proximity to children is something that would make the priesthood desirable to those types.

For the sake of argument, let's say God exists. Let's even say that Intelligent Design is correct. If that is true, then God didn't mean for humans to abstain from sex. It's been proven that regular ejaculation is healthy for men. It lowers the risk of prostate cancer, it releases hormones (that aside from feeling good) lower blood pressure and basically do lots of good things. If you believe that God created humans, then you have to accept that he created us in this fashion... so despite what the church tells you about sex (or masturbation) being bad, it is wrong. Sex (or masturbation) is good for you. In fact, abstaining from it is bad. It makes you go crazy. And it is even physically bad for you.

And all that aside, just as life forms, our basic drive is to reproduce and continue the cycle of life. To form bonds with others, etc. To deny that is to deny what makes us what we are. Doing that for any reason is wrong.

The Catholic church is wrong.

And the fact that there are pedophile priests raping and molesting children just goes to show how wrong they are... it's criminal that they cover it up and keep shuffling around those predators from post to post.

[Ben Kenobi]

but her feelings has little to do with a pastors right to marrige? i belive my father does what he thinks god wants him to do

I don't doubt that he does. It was the same in my mennonite church, and I think there is justification for both positions.

For myself, having seen both, I see some of the benefits of the Catholic way of celibate priests, less hassles, and less pressure on the families of the pastor.

One example, in my mennonite church, it would have been scandalous that you and TLC had left the church.

[germanos]

I think the Pope knows plenty about love, but nothing of sex or lust.

As for the poll: let them have bananas. I would say the whole celibacy-thing is reason enough to call them restricted nutters who deny themselves the most basic theme that life brings to them.

[Illur]

i haven't left the church, i have never been a member, i'm not sure about TLC
but i really can't see what my belifes has to do with my father's, it would be narrowminded to judge either of us by the other one's belifes

[Ben Kenobi]

That line of thinking is really quite stupid. I'm not sure if that is the reason priests in the Catholic church are not allowed to marry, but that is a pretty silly reason if that is the case.

Certainly, it is not the whole of what the catechism says, but it is the passage of scripture cited in defense of the Catholic decision to have celibate priests.

1 Cor 7:32-4

An unmarried man is concerned about the Lord's affairs—how he can please the Lord. But a married man is concerned about the affairs of this world—how he can please his wife— and his interests are divided. An unmarried woman or virgin is concerned about the Lord's affairs: Her aim is to be devoted to the Lord in both body and spirit. But a married woman is concerned about the affairs of this world—how she can please her husband.

Orthodox priests, for instance, are allowed to marry (in fact marriage is a requirement for priesthood in the Orthodox church) and they don't seem to have a problem concentrating on their parishioners. In fact, by having a family of their own, I think priests have a greater understanding of what it means to actually have a family. Because how can a priest be part of a community and understand the problems families go through if he himself does not have a family?

That is the argument in Timothy, and we could go on and on about either side. Needless to say, the Catholic teaching is that this is a disciplinary choice that has been made, and not one on doctrine. However, Timothy does not say that there is a requirement for pastors to be married, only that if the pastor is married, that he be married to only one wife. Otherwise folks like the Apostle Paul could not have leadership within the church. I can agree with a church allowing married priests, but to require of them to be married is a tradition of the Orthodox church, and not doctrinal.

The whole celibacy thing is probably why you get the pedophiles in the Catholic church. Whether or not celibacy causes people to go nuts is something I don't know... but it seems to me that the position of trust, the close proximity to children is something that would make the priesthood desirable to those types.

Precisely so. And it has been shown that Catholic priests show about the same rate of abuse as other occupations like teachers. For example, how can we in one case praise teachers who sleep with younger students but at the same time rail against the priests?

The problem is not celibacy, but the proximity.

For the sake of argument, let's say God exists. Let's even say that Intelligent Design is correct. If that is true, then God didn't mean for humans to abstain from sex. It's been proven that regular ejaculation is healthy for men. It lowers the risk of prostate cancer, it releases hormones (that aside from feeling good) lower blood pressure and basically do lots of good things.

I agree with you wholeheartedly that there can be some benefits to sex, and it makes sense for people to have sex on a regular basis. You are not going to get me to argue that sex is evil or unhealthy. However, I will argue that you need to also take into account that sex can be unhealthy especially outside of marriage.

Does it make sense to tell someone who is unmarried to sleep around and catch std's on the grounds that their health will improve?

If you believe that God created humans, then you have to accept that he created us in this fashion... so despite what the church tells you about sex (or masturbation) being bad, it is wrong. Sex (or masturbation) is good for you. In fact, abstaining from it is bad. It makes you go crazy. And it is even physically bad for you.

Here I have to disagree. You have simply shown that sex can be healthy. You have not shown that remaining celibate necessarily makes you crazy. In fact there are folks who claim to have no attraction either to men or women, which would prove your claim to be false.

And all that aside, just as life forms, our basic drive is to reproduce and continue the cycle of life. To form bonds with others, etc. To deny that is to deny what makes us what we are. Doing that for any reason is wrong.

Our basic drive? I will not argue that for some this is their desire. Others could not in the least bit interested.

And the fact that there are pedophile priests raping and molesting children just goes to show how wrong they are... it's criminal that they cover it up and keep shuffling around those predators from post to post.

As it is an argument against the public school system that allows teachers to molest the children in their care. I agree, the church should hold those responsible for these abuses, and that the church has and will pay dearly for these. What I disagree with is that these abuses have anything to do with celibacy.

[Ben Kenobi]

i haven't left the church, i have never been a member, i'm not sure about TLC

but i really can't see what my belifes has to do with my father's, it would be narrowminded to judge either of us by the other one's belifes

The argument in favour of a married pastor is that the pastor who manages his family well ought to be able to manage a congregation. They would see it as evidence that he does not manage his family well if his children do not choose to come to church.

[Japher]

the fewl marries god and jesus man
it's like he's gay, but they just say he's like a disciple

[Illur]

poor dad, he coulden't force me to belive in god, bad pastor, BAD!
but his work isn't (supposed) to be to manage something, he's only like a guide for others, he helps other find their way in their belife
part of what he does is respecting people, wouldn't it be very respectless to force me to go to church only because i'm his daughter? (besides, he can allways blame it all on my neurotic brain )

[Ben Kenobi]

poor dad, he coulden't force me to belive in god, bad pastor, BAD!
but his work isn't (supposed) to be to manage something, he's only like a guide for others, he helps other find their way in their belife
part of what he does is respecting people, wouldn't it be very respectless to force me to go to church only because i'm his daughter? (besides, he can allways blame it all on my neurotic brain

I didn't say they were right to think that, just that this is what they would think. Truth be told I haven't had much experience in growing up in a Christian family, I go to church alone even though I am at home now. There are plenty of things I can't talk about when I am home, out of respect for my parents.

Would I have liked to grow up in a pastor's family, surrounded by church? I don't know. I've had a few glimpses of that in the lives of some of my best friends and they all seem very happy.

I guess that was part of my longing to go to the Phils with Lancer, to just be able to live that life for awhile and see what I've missed.

[Illur]

i can talk with my father about our different belifes (or not-belifes) and about other religions and philosophies it's great

[Ben Kenobi]

Yeah, that's cool. Wish my folks would be more open about that sort of thing, but we always end up fighting.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


The argument in favour of a married pastor is that the pastor who manages his family well ought to be able to manage a congregation. .

I did a search for arguments in favor of a married rabbi. Found none. That would be like asking for arguments in favor, of I dont know, rabbis being literate, or drinking coffee in the morning, or keeping in touch with their moms. Why wouldnt they be married? I mean this isnt the kind of question that would even occur to us.

Ok, now - Christians AREN'Tl ike Jews who accept Christ as Messiah - they're members of a thoroughly different civilization. QED. (and apologies to Mordechai Kaplan)