US bombs Pakistan

[notyoueither]

From the Guardian article...

One Pakistani official, speaking anonymously, told The Observer that hours before the strike some unidentified guests had arrived at one home and that some bodies had been removed quickly after the attack. This was denied by villagers.

[techumseh]

What a bunch of crap. The "Salafist movement" would not have taken a foothold if it weren't for western and particluarly American interference and intervention in the Islamic world. Whether it was launching the coup that brought the Shah to power and propping up his murderous regime, to the support of Israeli aggression against the Palestinians, the intervention in Lebanon, the destruction of vital non-military targets in Sudan, the creation and support of the Mujahdeen in Afganistan - including Osama Bin Laden, the intervention in Somalia, propping up the feudal Saudis and the Emirs of the Gulf, or the criminal aggression against Iraq, the US has done everything possible to provoke the Arab and Islamic people.

The US has, along with Britain and France, undermined or destroyed the secular governments which were holding the fundamentalists at bay. The conditions for breeding terrorism are far riper now than before the invasion of Iraq. The security of the US and other countries has deteriorated dramatically. And you have actions like the attack on the Pakistani village to thank for it. Justifying attacks on innocent civilians in pursuit of the "War on Terror" reminds me of William Westmoreland justifying "search and destroy" missions which killed Vietnamese peasants and ended up creating support for the NLF. Shame.

[notyoueither]

http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2006/01/15/afghan-deaths060115.html

Soldiers in critical condition after Afghan bombing kills envoy
Last Updated Sun, 15 Jan 2006 23:02:13 EST
CBC News
Two Canadian soldiers remained in critical condition in hospital Sunday night and a third was nursing serious injuries after a bomber hit a military convoy in Afghanistan, killing a senior Canadian diplomat.


INDEPTH: Canada's involvement in Afghanistan


Diplomat Glyn Berry. (Courtesy Department of National Defence)
One of the soldiers managed to save his own life after the blast by applying a tourniquet to his severed left leg, his wife said late Sunday.

The suicide car bombing struck the convoy as it was returning to the coalition forces base near Kandahar earlier in the day.

The powerful blast hurled the armoured vehicle transporting the Canadians into a row of shops.

It killed Glyn Berry, 59, a Foreign Affairs envoy who had been working as the political director of the provincial reconstruction team in Afghanistan.

Foreign Affairs said he was the first Canadian diplomat to be slain abroad.

Diplomat praised for distinguished career

Berry had spent nearly three decades working as a diplomat, including postings at the United Nations and in Pakistan before he began his work in Afghanistan in August.

His military and diplomatic colleagues described Berry on Sunday as a dedicated diplomat who passionately believed in the rule of international law.


FROM JAN. 15, 2005: Slain envoy praised for 29-year career, sense of duty

"When I spoke with his widow today, she spoke touchingly about how important he felt this work was and how much he felt he was making a difference," Peter Harder of Foreign Affairs Canada told reporters.

"His loss touches us all."

Medic put tourniquet on his own severed leg

The attack also killed two Afghan civilians and injured 13 people, including three Canadians: Pte. William Salikin of 3rd Battalion Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry, Cpl. Jeffrey Bailey of 1 Combat Engineer Regiment, and Master Cpl. Paul Franklin of 1 Field Ambulance.


Master Cpl. Paul Franklin, a medic, told his wife that the blast severed part of one leg and broke the other. (File Photo Courtesy Department of National Defence)
Two of the Canadians were in hospital at the U.S.-led base at Kandahar airport with life-threatening injuries while the third was in serious condition, Lt.-Gen. Marc Dumais told reporters at a briefing in Ottawa.

He didn't give any further details, except to say that the injured soldiers would be airlifted to a U.S. military hospital in Germany as soon as possible.

Franklin's wife, Audra Franklin, later said she had spoken with her husband on the telephone.

Franklin, a medic, told her that the explosion severed his left leg below the knee and broke his right leg.

"I'm so proud, because ... he applied his own tourniquet in the field and saved his own life," she told CBC News at her home in Edmonton.

'They all understand the risk they take,' military commander says


Pte. William Salikin (File Photo Courtesy Department of National Defence)
Brig. Gen. Tim Grant, the commander of military forces in Western Canada, said all three soldiers were based in Edmonton and due to return home within weeks.

Grant told a news conference that the city's tight-knit military community had been hit hard by news of the attack.

But he also said Canadian troops working in Afghanistan knew the risks and felt they were worth taking.

"The life we sign up for is dangerous. It's a risky environment," Grant said.

"They're doing an important job over there and they all understand that, and they all understand the risk they take."

No indication that Canadians were targeted


Cpl. Jeff Bailey (File Photo Courtesy Department of National Defence)
The Taliban claimed responsibility for Sunday's attack, which witnesses said occurred when a vehicle swerved into the convoy and exploded.

Defence officials said the convoy was travelling in armoured Mercedes-Benz Gelaendewagens (known as "G Wagons"), but the blast was so powerful that it blew the one vehicle across the road.


FROM DEC. 12, 2005: Bomb ripped apart vehicle carrying Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan

But the attack highlighted the increasing dangers for coalition troops in Afghanistan.

There have been more than 25 suicide car bombings in the past four months, as militants take up a once-rare tactic to try to destabilize the country.

Afghanistan receives Canada's largest foreign commitment in both dollars and military deployments.


The wreckage of a vehicle is seen after the explosion that happened in Kandahar, Afghanistan on Sunday. (AP Photo)
Canada has about 650 troops in Afghanistan, but plans to increase its military presence in Kandahar to about 2,000 in February.

Defence officials said there was no indication that Canadians were specifically targeted in Sunday's attack.

PM offers condolences

Prime Minister Paul Martin issued a statement expressing his concern and condolences "on behalf of all Canadians."

"Mr. Berry had a long and distinguished career of service to Canadians at home and abroad," Martin said in a statement.

The PM's statement went on to wish "the three Canadian soldiers who were injured, a speedy and complete recovery."

Contrary to what is printed, it is being reported on broadcasts that Taliban/AQ suicide bombers crossed the border from Pakistan into Afghanistan specifically to target Canadians to convince our government not to send more troops, and to effect the politicians of The Netherlands in hopes of getting them to not send troops to help rebuild the country.

Bomb the **** out of those areas of Pakistan that the government dare not go, and that harbours our enemies, as far as I am concerned.

It is unfortunate that children died, but children are dying in Afghanistan as well.

[notyoueither]

In case what I posted didn't make it clear, Afghanistan is not an American operation, it is a NATO operation.

There are people hiding in Pakistan who want to chase NATO out of Afghanistan, and go on from there to prolong the misery of the people who live there. They don't give a **** about taking out shops and people when they blow up their bombs.

It is unfortunate that people who live in remote areas of Pakistan have taken up the cause of the fundies, but that is their decision and they will have to live with the effects on themselves and their families. The Yanks, and the rest of us, have an obligation to our soldiers and to the people of Afghanistan. Losing is not an option, and ignoring the enemy in safe areas is not a recipe for winning.

[Pekka]

This is nothing new. Border crossing is very old thing, I thought for example Cambodia and Laos is something that US in particular knows about. The VC supply routes and all that stuff.

Effective guerillas will do this. Effective terrorists will do this. The ones close borders will absolutely do this. The question is, how well is Pakistani police, military etc able to protect those civilians in those border areas from this pressure and from fundies? This be the innocent ones.

I'm very sorry I'm interested about the innocent ones in this battle, I realize it's not up to par with the latest testofest

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Pekka
Effective guerillas will do this. Effective terrorists will do this. The ones close borders will absolutely do this. The question is, how well is Pakistani police, military etc able to protect those civilians in those border areas from this pressure and from fundies? This be the innocent ones.

The answer is not at all. The Pakistani military doesn't go anywhere off the highways.

Police is a pipe dream. The area is ruled by tribal justice.

[Pekka]

Right, right, I mean I know something about Pakistan but not too much. I figured this could be a problem, the control of it. That is why I never spoke against the strike from the beginning.

It's a problematic situation for sures.

One of my theories on terrorism and it's success has been 'under-developed' models for societies, mostly tribal ones. You can't get **** done in those places, and if there's some heat going on, the flame will never die.

[notyoueither]

It can die.

You have to build a government in Kabul that can rule the country. To do that you have to stop the Taliban from coming back. Unfortunately, the Taliban and AQ have retreated to remote areas of Pakistan and are engaged in a game of outwaiting, and outkilling, NATO.

The problem is that the areas of Pakistan that they are hiding in are as good as Taliban ruled. The government of Pakistan has no control there. Shrieks of outrage at American strikes that yield dead AQ ring very hollow.

[Pekka]

Yes I meant that it can't die as long as the same model for society continues. We've seen this in many places like Somalia etc.

Now, of course society can start forming healthy and grow, and then the flames can die. But as long as the marching order is what it is, I don't see any end to things.

[techumseh]

Originally posted by notyoueither
It can die.

You have to build a government in Kabul that can rule the country. To do that you have to stop the Taliban from coming back. Unfortunately, the Taliban and AQ have retreated to remote areas of Pakistan and are engaged in a game of outwaiting, and outkilling, NATO.

The problem is that the areas of Pakistan that they are hiding in are as good as Taliban ruled. The government of Pakistan has no control there. Shrieks of outrage at American strikes that yield dead AQ ring very hollow.

A. Pakistan is a soveriegn country, allied to the US. Under international law (such as it was, before Dubya) this is an illegal act.

B. "Yielding dead AQ" is totally unproven. There are, however, dead children.

C. Such actions will INCREASE support for AQ and Taliban, something you don't seem to get. Neither does Dubya, for that matter.

[notyoueither]

A. A nation is not sovereign where it has no control. American-Canadian history should enlighten you on the topic. Or, look at simple examples like Hans Island.

B. Even the Guardian saw fit to print the bits about 'foreigners' who arrived, and had bodies carried out. Do you think they printed that without some reason to back it up?

C. I don't think that killing people who invited AQ's #2 to dinner is going to make their cousins suddenly hostile. What do you think?

D. Killing leaders of AQ and the Taliban who direct operations, that just killed a Canadian, is not going to strengthen them.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Sandman
I'll reserve judgement on this until I know more. This was obviously a reckless gamble by America that's backfired. Wouldn't be the first.

Wow, I can't wait for your "unreserved" judgement.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by techumseh

B. "Yielding dead AQ" is totally unproven. There are, however, dead children.

Prove that. We have statements that women and children were killed and statements that AQ were killed, and none from sources that are willing to be named and considered reliable.

[Sandman]

Originally posted by Sikander
Wow, I can't wait for your "unreserved" judgement.

The PR hit would have been worth it to kill AQ's number 2. I won't deny that. But this is an incredibly dangerous game to be playing, and more discretion wouldn't hurt. Islamic revolution in Pakistan = nightmare.

[Arrian]

Question:

Would those who are all pissed off over this rather we just invaded Pakistan? What, exactly, are the alternatives? The Pakistani government appears incapable of controlling this area. It appears extremely likely that a good chunk of A-Q is hiding there and using it as a staging ground for attacks into Afganistan. Do we just ignore it? No. Do we attempt to kill our enemies? Yes. Ok, your choice:

1) Use of intel to target specific enemies and drop bombs on them; or

2) Invasion.

[insert Jeopardy music]

-Arrian