PowerBook is dead; MacBook Pro is here (Intel-based)

[Asher]

My computer is virus-free, and a great machine to use. Has been for countless years now.

I also paid considerably less for a system far faster than yours, more expandable/upgradable than yours, quieter than yours, and with more software than yours.

[Agathon]

I've edited out your copious use of smilies for the sake of sanity.

Originally posted by Sava
Actually, I was.

I had the misfortune of having to use Macs when I went to that Art school. It really sucked because I had to save all my projects on a Mac zip disk. Which was REALLY GREAT because I could never work on my projects at home... I had to always go into school and work on them because the Mac zip disk wouldn't work on my PC.

That's weird. I've been using Macs since 1994 and I never had this problem. The only problem I ever really had was that my 386DX40 had the old style 5" floppy drives (as did most the PCs of its era) while the Macs used the smaller ones.

This is all ancient history. Apple switched to the BSD based OS X in 2001 and there have been very few compatibility problems since then. I have never had a file not open even though it was switched back and forth between platforms.

Most of the complaints about the Mac OS have to do with the fact that it doesn't behave quite like Windows. This has to do with the fact that Windows used to basically be a graphical shell over DOS which restricted where you could put things. Windows 3.1 didn't even have a proper desktop and this idiotic thing called File Manager instead of a proper Finder. Still, it was a pretty usable system for its time.

The Classic Mac OS was built around the desktop idea - from the start it was built to be a GUI. You had a desktop which you stuck folders on and you could put things pretty much wherever you liked. I still miss this aspect of OS 9. I just had folders on the desktop and used the spring loaded feature to get to my stuff. It was almost all drag and drop. The new system is much more like Windows in some ways, although it still bears the heritage of the original Mac OS. I find I drag and drop a lot less than I used to.

I guess the best way to put it is that the Mac OS was much more spatially based than earlier versions of Windows. It took me a while to get used to because I was used to the Windows way of doing things.

and those mouses ****ing sucked

it was horrible having to use photoshop and macromedia flash on a mouse with one button... trying to fricking right click all the time

Most professionals replaced their one button mouse with a multibutton mouse. The Mac OS has been plug and play with multibutton mice for as long as I have been using one. A multibutton mouse is about 20 bucks. How many people keep the mouse their PC comes with anyway? Your school was simply being cheap.

The design philosophy behind the one button mouse was to make the software work with it rather than alter the hardware. A one button mouse is simpler for beginners. You've no idea how many people don't understand what right clicking is. If you use one of the really old macs (like the LC series or the old macs from the 80s) you'll find that a second button is superfluous.

With OS X the one button mouse became less viable, and it was already on the way out because of the web (which basically needs right clicking for a lot of things) and games. I still like the Apple Pro Mouse. I find that it isn't so hard on my hand, even though I don't own one any more.

The worst mouse Apple has ever made is their new Mighty Mouse. Basically it sucks. I won't buy one until they redesign it from scratch.

[Sava]

Originally posted by Asher
My computer is virus-free, and a great machine to use. Has been for countless years now.

ditto...

although I paid a lot for my monitor, speakers and video card... I dunno how much Verto paid for his system...

Agathon: Say all you want. It doesn't change the fact Mac's suck and are inferior to PC's in every way.

oh... btw... copious use of smilies

sanity is overrated

[Asher]

Info on "Core Duo"s successor:

http://www.tgdaily.com/2006/01/11/merom_to_be_launched_in_september/

Intel to launch Core Duo successor "Merom" in September

Wolfgang Gruener

11 Jan 2006 23:47



Chicago (IL) - Intel is on track to introduce its next-generation mobile processor "Merom", which will also serve for as foundation for a range of desktop and server processors, in September of this year, TG Daily has learned. Merom will launch at 2.33 GHz and bring 64-bit capability to a refreshed mobile processor platform, code-named Napa64.

Within the past two weeks, Intel introduced what is most likely, its broadest processor introduction in the firm's history. At CES, Core Duo was announced and, according to Intel, is available in well more than 230 designs, 110 of which are Viiv entertainment center PCs. And while Apple is still promoting the launch of the first Intel processor in its systems, sources provided us first details about the successor of the CPU.


Intel apparently has scheduled the launch of Merom for September of this year. Back in Fall of 2005, it had been speculated that Merom would arrive very early in Q3 of 2006 and possibly could have been the processor Apple wanted to use for its transition into the x86 world. Whether Merom is delayed or not, a September delivery date was too late for Apple to make the x86 move in order to be able complete the transition buy the end of 2006. Core Duo therefore was the obvious choice.

Core is a 32-bit processor, mainly because 64-bit support would have required more transistors and would have negatively impacted power consumption of the chip, we were previously told by Intel executives. This is not a big deal right now, as 64-bit applications are rather scarce. However, according to sources, Windows Vista and Microsoft's upcoming Office suite will introduce 64-bit extensions in the 2007 timeframe which, as a result, will not be supported by Core.

Users who rely on 64-bit computing already today and would like to purchase a product that will run all features of Vista and Office in the 2007 will have to wait for Merom. The processor is based on a newly developed architecture that will spread its genes throughout Intel's processor portfolio. At least half a dozen Merom derivates for desktop and server platforms are scheduled to arrive between September 2006 and the first quarter of 2008.

Sources told TG Daily that Merom silicon as part of the Napa64 platform (Calistoga chipset) is on track, but currently shows higher power consumption levels than the company anticipated. Preliminary tests also revealed than power consumption under Vista is about 5 to 10% higher than under Windows XP. Intel plans to introduce Merom at 2.33 GHz, with the option to also offer 2.5 GHz, if thermal design power (TDP) goals can be achieved.

Napa64 is considered to be a refresh of the current Napa platform for the Core Duo processor. Details on the feature enhancements are still missing, but it is a good guess that Intel will introduce chipset enhancements we described not quite two weeks ago - such as HDMI, HD audio and a trusted platform module (TPM).

A completely new platform for Merom will be arriving in the second quarter of 2007: There is little we know about this platform, which is code-named Santa Rosa, so far. However, sources indicated that the platform originally was planned to carry DDR3 memory, FSB1066 as well as a major graphics upgrade - all of which have been dropped. Also, the platform is unlikely to be capable of running HD video through hardware decoding. For example, ATI is expected to have such a feature available for mobile platforms through its RS600 chip sometime in 2006, while Intel apparently will not support hardware HD video decoding until 2008, sources indicated.

[Agathon]

My computer is virus-free, and a great machine to use. Has been for countless years now.

I also paid considerably less for a system far faster than yours, more expandable/upgradable than yours, quieter than yours, and with more software than yours.

The problem is that it runs a terrible and badly designed OS. Unlike you, most people can't and don't want to engage in the sort of fiddly crap that fixing Windows problems involves. Most computer users are like my wife, who refuses to learn anything more than the most basic procedures. She has used OS X since it came out (and she in fact installed it herself - she was moaning when I bought it and said it would be hard, so I just gave her the disk and came back in 15 minutes) and has never managed to wreck the system or any of the applications.

When I think of the crap she went through with my old PC I shiver. The additional cost of the macs has been more than paid for by their trouble free operations. Her boss just bought a Dell a few months back. I've stopped using IM for the simple reason that I was getting requests for help every other night -- usually caused by some crap piece of bundled software.

Most people are like them. Windows is a minefield.

You just don't get it. People like me don't want the hassle that Windows brings. I've got better things to do than spend hours learning how to fix some arcane problem that shouldn't exist in the first place.

Here's the difference. In our lab at work we have a bunch of PCs and an emac. The tech guy happens to be really good. However, no matter how much work he does the PCs are invariably borked in minor ways (cryptic error messages - other things that just stop working). If you go in after he's just been there, it's OK. But if not, minor annoyances are sure to appear. Printing sometimes doesn't work.

The emac is maintained by me (or is supposed to be). When I say "maintained" I mean that I fire up Safari and post on Apolyton if I am bored. The only real work involved was the day it arrived. I installed Office, set up the user privileges for the regular user account (i.e locked them out of almost everything) and wrote a note on the desktop with instructions for using telnet and PINE. It's been there for years now (it runs Jaguar) and just goes. It hasn't had a single technical problem the whole time, despite heavy use. That is as it should be.

When I think of the trouble I have had with my cheap wireless router, I would have just been better off buying an Airport Base Station. That's the difference between buying an Apple product and something that is cobbled together from various manufacturers: you can be pretty sure that it will work straight off.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Sava

Agathon: Say all you want. It doesn't change the fact Mac's suck and are inferior to PC's in every way.

When Vista (ugh! - that beats MacBook for suckage) comes out in December, then you can enjoy many of the features that Verto and I have been enjoying for almost a year, and in my case for 4 or 5 years.

Just don't expect it to be secure or trouble free.

In any case I am sure Verto and I will be running OS X.5 by then, and you guys will be behind once more.

http://tauquil.com/archives/2006/01/06/re-introducing-the-real-windows-vista/

[Asher]

Originally posted by Agathon
The problem is that it runs a terrible and badly designed OS. Unlike you, most people can't and don't want to engage in the sort of fiddly crap that fixing Windows problems involves.

I don't want to engage of fiddly crap that Windows problems involve. One problem with Windows is it's too easy to f*ck up by people who don't know what they're doing.

Most people are like them. Windows is a minefield.

You just don't get it.

No, I get it just fine. In fact, I think I get computers, their design, and their use better than you ever will.

Macs are not easier to use. MacOS X is harder to f*ck up -- which is a good thing that Vista will share. You are fundamentally ignorant about computers, even if you know how to click a mouse and type your pompous essays in Word.

When I think of the trouble I have had with my cheap wireless router, I would have just been better off buying an Airport Base Station. That's the difference between buying an Apple product and something that is cobbled together from various manufacturers: you can be pretty sure that it will work straight off.

You're talking out of your ass. The Airport Base Station locks up continually with 40+ open connections, it has compatibility problems with numerous popular Windows apps and services (including BitTorrent through UPnP), and actually has the same logic chips in it that you get through the el-cheapo American Robotics routers (and I don't think they make non-OEM products anymore).

This is the perfect example -- you have no clue what the product is you're saying is so perfect. Just because it has the Apple name it is better for you.

Apple has never designed a router in their history, with the exception of the hipster casing it's in.

And as for me "not getting it", who is the person not getting it? Look at what product people buy 95% of the time over the Mac. You don't get it, not me.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Agathon
When Vista (ugh! - that beats MacBook for suckage) comes out in December, then you can enjoy many of the features that Verto and I have been enjoying for almost a year, and in my case for 4 or 5 years.

Just don't expect it to be secure or trouble free.

In any case I am sure Verto and I will be running OS X.5 by then, and you guys will be behind once more.



http://tauquil.com/archives/2006/01/...windows-vista/

What a load of horse****.

I watched the first video and I've seen enough.

They talk about a "fresh user interface" and it shows how MS copied Apple(!!!!) by changing the interface in a new release of the OS(!!!!).

The people who make videos like that are pathetic, as are the people who link to them in a discussion as if it means anything.

While you've been "enjoying" the infinite-bouncing-dock-icons for "years" now, I've been playing a huge array of games. I've been encoding my movies and photos at rates far faster than you, I've been enjoying a superior development environment, I've been enjoying better value out of my computer.

[Asher]

And by the way:

The problem is that it runs a terrible and badly designed OS.

You have no idea what defines a well-designed OS...

You can't even begin to make a statement like that until you've taken some OS design courses.

[Q Classic]

Oh, yeah, the mac mice.

One of Apple's biggest design failures was the circular mouse.

Thank god they replaced that disaster fast.

[Asher]

What are you talking about !

The puck mouse was a work of art !

It is easy to use !

My wind0ze mice always break, but my puck mouse still works !

That's the difference between buying an Apple product and something that is cobbled together from various manufacturers: you can be pretty sure that it will work straight off.

[Apocalypse]

I just use a nice logitec mouse I got for my laptop when I need to use a Mac. Much easier.

[Verto]

Originally posted by Asher
My computer is virus-free, and a great machine to use. Has been for countless years now.

I also paid considerably less for a system far faster than yours, more expandable/upgradable than yours, quieter than yours, and with more software than yours.

Well, I'd say the difference between running a virus-free, spyware/etc-free PC, vs. running the same with a Mac, is that I don't have to bother with Windows AntiSpyWare, or Norton AntiVirus, or SpyBot, or Adaware - all programs I had to use far to frequently, since I shared a computer with people not so uber l33t as, say, you

You have no idea what defines a well-designed OS...

You can't even begin to make a statement like that until you've taken some OS design courses.

To state whether or not an OS is well-designed, or easy to use, doesn't require an OS design class, so stop the BS. Unless you are ready to shut your mouth about how well designed cars are, or a house.

And as for me "not getting it", who is the person not getting it? Look at what product people buy 95% of the time over the Mac. You don't get it, not me.

Yes, but you see, the majority of those people aren't choosing Windows XP; they are choosing the cheap, 200$ Dell or whatever computer, which happens to come with Windows, that they will take home and then complain about viruses and bla bla bla. Not to mention those people who consider their PC disposable, and plan to replace it in a year after they trash it with viruses

[Agathon]

You have no idea what defines a well-designed OS...

You can't even begin to make a statement like that until you've taken some OS design courses

You have no idea what defines a well designed car...

You can't even begin to make a statement like that until you've taken some car design courses...

...as opposed to driving one every day...

edit: I see Verto beat me to it.

[Q Classic]

Originally posted by Verto
Well, I'd say the difference between running a virus-free, spyware/etc-free PC, vs. running the same with a Mac, is that I don't have to bother with Windows AntiSpyWare, or Norton AntiVirus, or SpyBot, or Adaware - all programs I had to use far to frequently, since I shared a computer with people not so uber l33t as, say, you

Just because OS X is not a system currently targeted doesn't mean it'll stay that way.

Besides, I don't have to bother with WindowsAS, SpyBot, AdAware, or McAfee Virusscan in anymore than the most remote sense--set up properly, it's all automagic, with status reports available to read every time they're run.

To state whether or not an OS is well-designed, or easy to use, doesn't require an OS design class, so stop the BS. Unless you are ready to shut your mouth about how well designed cars are, or a house.

Actually, it's interesting you bring up cars and houses.

We don't let people drive without cars. Why let them on the internet without some basic training? You know, the "Don't take candy from strangers" bit, the "Look at the page before putting in personal data" bit, and so on?

It's a good idea to have an inspector come out to your house before you buy it, and it's a good idea to have people come to your house for termite prevention and other such maintenance. Wouldn't it be a good idea to have a geek come to your house and set up the security systems properly?

Of course, that's not happening yet, because people aren't being told that it's a good ****ing idea, and their idiocy is directly affecting my internet.

Yes, but you see, the majority of those people aren't choosing Windows XP; they are choosing the cheap, 200$ Dell or whatever computer, which happens to come with Windows, that they will take home and then complain about viruses and bla bla bla. Not to mention those people who consider their PC disposable, and plan to replace it in a year after they trash it with viruses

Yes, and the majority of people buying a Mac these days aren't doing it to avoid the maintenance; they're doing it because they want to join an elite club, and unwittingly, they're celebrating vendor lock-in.

Now, I understand some people might like a lack of choice once they pick their poison, but as for me...