If you went back in time to Martin Luther and said...

[Straybow]

Luther already crossed that bridge, without the need for time travel. He said roughly, "If it is sin, then sin boldly!" That is, he honestly believed he was doing what was necessary for the corruption of the church to end.

[Barnabas]

Originally posted by germanos

The renaissance and Protestantism is what did the Ottomans/muslims in, and the muslims are still hopelessly fighting against it.

How?

I would say that what made the ottomas irrelevant and decadent was the discovery of America, the same also happened to the italian city states like Venice which were so important up to that point.

Once you could get the gold and silver in America, and spices by circumnavigating Africa you no longer needed to go to Alexandria, Istambul, or Tripoli to get stuff.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Brachy-Pride

I would say that what made the ottomas irrelevant and decadent was the discovery of America, the same also happened to the italian city states like Venice which were so important up to that point.

Once you could get the gold and silver in America, and spices by circumnavigating Africa you no longer needed to go to Alexandria, Istambul, or Tripoli to get stuff.

It was two things: the discovery of the Americas, and the ability of the Portuguese (at first) to sail past Cape Bojador and trade directly with sub-Saharan Africa and East Africa, the Safavid Empire, the Moghul Empire and Asia up through the Indonesian archipelago to Japan and China.

The Portuguese destroyed a centuries old trading system when they began creating a territorial and trading empire around the Indian Ocean and Persian Gulf, and were (inadvertently) responsible for the collapse of the African empires which traded across the Sahara to the Maghrebi states in modern day Morocco and Algeria and Egypt.

Venetians were indeed understandably concerned about the Portuguese circumventing their trade routes, but it still took another 200 years for Venice to decline, and throughout this time it was still trading and fighting with the Ottoman Empire- which itself was busily defeating the Mamelukes and engaged in a 'holy war' against the Shi'ite Safavids.

Venice had also (despite being a Christian power) traded with the Fatimids and Mamelukes, importing alum and mordants and gum and carpets, porcelain and so on.

http://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/200504/monsoons.i.mude.i.and.gold.htm

The Ottomans also took a long time to decline, still being able to launch a military strike at Vienna in 1683, nearly 200 years after Columbus sailed the ocean blue.

There is in fact a very interesting 'What If?' essay on the timing of the first Ottoman siege of Vienna in 1529- only 12 years after Luther's theses are nailed to the door. Had Charles V and I not had an Ottoman threat to deal with, who knows what might have happened to Luther ?

I can't recall off-hand if it's in 'What If?' one or two- sorry.

http://www.ecampus.com/bk_detail.asp?isbn=0743518608

In fact Luther responded to the threat with this:

"On War Against the Turk," Martin Luther exhorted the rulers of Europe to put aside their petty rivalries and unite against the threat posed by Islam. He said that self-defense against the Muslim "abomination," who he called "blasphemers against Christ," was a divinely ordained application of the sword.

http://www.zianet.com/wblase/endtimes/barbary.htm

Gosh, that sounds quite contemporary...

[Last Conformist]

Islam's got theistic unit? That comment made, if not my day, then at least my next several minutes.

[JohnT]

"apparent" theistic unity, LC. Please read the entire phrase as it is accurate as it stands - for what the average Joe Christian cares is that he sees a monolithic block of "Moslems" that is antithetical to the West. He might realize that there is somehow a difference between Sunni and Shiite, but to him they might as well be the same thing. However, he passes ten different Christian denominations on his way to work every morning, most brought about by the Protestant schism, and he thinks "They're more unified and organized than us."

Apparent unity.

[Last Conformist]

As soon as we get rid of this effing universal suffrage, nobody will need care what the average Joe Christian thinks.

I think old Martin was aware that if you avoid saying anything that might confuse idiots, you can't say anything.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by molly bloom



Aah, how sweet.


Wesley Crusher Does Sarcasm, only not terribly well.

Yeah, Kuci, leave the poorly done sarcasm to me

[Last Conformist]

Originally posted by germanos


Well, it was you who mentioned turks and spain in the same sentence.

Presumably because the Spanish fought the Turks in North Africa and on the Med time and time again in the 15th century.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by germanos
Well,

they were kicked out of spain in 149?, well before Luther even nailed his stuff to the door.

Turks were never in Spain. You are talking about Arabs.

[Ben Kenobi]

So... that implies that the Reformation was perhaps something in the air, waiting to happen, and that if it weren't Luther, it would've been somebody else. Not Erasmus, he was too much the Establishment Man, the Man in the Grey Flannel Robes. Calvin, maybe?

St. Francis holding up the church?

[Ben Kenobi]

how far into that moral abyss would the Catholic Church have continued to sink?? In the end, the whole rotten mess might have collapsed altogether.

Luther made the decision to go outside the Catholic church in order to reform, while others made the opposite decision to stay inside. I can't see why things would have gotten worse without Luther.

[Drake Tungsten]

You're welcome. You do need tips on making your posts a little less dull, and I'm happy to oblige, even if only by providing the examples of others.

God bless you, sir.

[mrmitchell]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker


You're welcome. You do need tips on making your posts a little less dull, and I'm happy to oblige, even if only by providing the examples of others.