If you went back in time to Martin Luther and said...

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by molly bloom
I wasn't writing to 'amuse' - which I thought would have been obvious, given the tenor of my post.

But thanks for the tips on literary style and content- I'll be real sure to bear them in mind the next time I have the temerity to casually mention in passing something you may recall featuring in someone else's posts.

You're welcome. You do need tips on making your posts a little less dull, and I'm happy to oblige, even if only by providing the examples of others.

[Philosophiser]

Originally posted by molly bloom



It's worth bearing in mind that the new sects seemed to go hand in hand with 'nationalist' fervour in many states in Northern Europe- Calvinism in the United Provinces, Scotland, some Swiss cantons and some German states, Lutheranism in Sweden, Denmark and some German states, and of course the Anglican confession in England.

But Calvin could still cooperate with the Catholic Church to put to death 'Protestants' he wasn't keen on- the antitrinitarian martyr, Michael Servetus for instance:

http://www.bcbsr.com/topics/servetus.html

http://history.hanover.edu/texts/comserv.html#6

As the Puritans in England and New England found, the Protestant dependence on the book, the scriptures, as sole authority brings with it the tendency for people to become their own authorities on what god does and does not allow.

This I must disagree with though. John Calvin was a product of his day. The Old Testament permits people to be stoned and burned if they commit a crime, including the crime of blasphemy (which to God is no different than murder- which we still use the death penalty for today). John Calvin was following the word of God insofar as he was defending the Trinity (as taught in the Holy Scripture) from blasphemy, and in his day burning was a common method of punishment- so to him it did not seem so far fetched.

John Calvin was not perfect, he was a sinner like all of us; but he was definitely one of the greatest prophets of God in that he resisted the Roman Catholic whore and in the end society is technologically and intellectually better for it- and of course many more souls were saved by the gospel than would otherwise have been saved.

Since I am a theonomist I have no problem with the Judicial Old Testament ordinances, or using the Holy Scripture as a basis for civil law- which reflects God's wisdom in civil affairs and would surely reduce crime and enhance freedom for all men. Statism would be eliminated, men would have total economic freedom, and crime would be virtually eliminated, along with burdensome bureaucratic police forces.

[JohnT]

Luther was a smart guy, but I wonder if he ever thought through the implications of some of what he was saying, especially the "every man his counsel" bit.

Do you think a unified Catholic Church would've been able to either beat back or co-opt the growing 'nationalist' fervor of the times? Obviously Luther threw a big wrench in the works - even Loyola and the Inquisition mostly bothered themselves with making sure that they didn't lose any more Catholics. Without the Reformation, they could've devoted their time to more temporal concerns.

I for one am thrilled with what Luther accomplished, but if there is a poster child for the Law of Unintended Consequences, he is front and center on it! I can't think of an equally historically significant personage whose dream of what they wanted, and what they actually got, diverged as dramatically as Luthers.

Except Hitler, but I don't want to Godwinize my thread, so... act like I didn't say that.

[JohnT]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker


You're welcome. You do need tips on making your posts a little less dull, and I'm happy to oblige, even if only by providing the examples of others.

I'm thrilled that Molly's participating. If you wish to discuss the writing styles of various Apolytoners, please start your own thread.

Danke.

[Philosophiser]

Originally posted by JohnT
Luther was a smart guy, but I wonder if he ever thought through the implications of some of what he was saying, especially the "every man his counsel" bit.

Do you think a unified Catholic Church would've been able to either beat back or co-opt the growing 'nationalist' fervor of the times? Obviously Luther threw a big wrench in the works - even Loyola and the Inquisition mostly bothered themselves with making sure that they didn't lose any more Catholics. Without the Reformation, they could've devoted their time to more temporal concerns.

I for one am thrilled with what Luther accomplished, but if there is a poster child for the Law of Unintended Consequences, he is front and center on it! I can't think of an equally historically significant personage who's dream of what they wanted, and what they actually got, verged as dramatically as Luthers.

Except Hitler, but I don't want to Godwinize my thread, so... act like I didn't say that.

Luther by the way wrote a book called "The Bondage of the Will" which is nothing other than Calvin's doctrine of total and absolute predestination. He was as much of a predestinationist as Calvin.

Luther was also a great prophet and he stood on God's Word as his authority against all of the machinations of the Roman Catholic Harlot. A true hero indeed.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker


You're welcome. You do need tips on making your posts a little less dull, and I'm happy to oblige, even if only by providing the examples of others.

Aah, how sweet.


Wesley Crusher Does Sarcasm, only not terribly well.


See if my posts were so dull, one wonders why someone with such exquisite literary insight as you would bother taking time off from solving all the world's problems to read and critique them, when you could be away reinitializing the transport buffers ?


Really, when I need tips on how to write from you, I'm reasonably certain that several blue moons will have occurred after a month of Sundays and pigs will be flying in formation.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by JohnT


Do you think a unified Catholic Church would've been able to either beat back or co-opt the growing 'nationalist' fervor of the times? Obviously Luther threw a big wrench in the works - even Loyola and the Inquisition mostly bothered themselves with making sure that they didn't lose any more Catholics. Without the Reformation, they could've devoted their time to more temporal concerns.

It's difficult to say- I suspect that 'nationalist' fervour would still have been there.

The way the Catholic Church was organised in France, Spain and England still allowed for certain privileges to be maintained by the ruling monarchs in each state, with relation to monies owed to the church, appointments to church vacancies in their particular countries, and so on.

Certainly, Charles V and Francis I and Henry VIII (even when still loyal) weren't simply tools of the Vatican to be relied upon- it was after all a faithful son of the Church who sacked Rome with Lutheran mercenaries in his employ, and not a Protestant prince.

I think that the principle of cuius regio, eius religio was coming; that certainly ease of printing and new technologies and the use of accounting and interest and amassing of capital contributed to the overall effects of the Lutheran schism.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by molly bloom
See if my posts were so dull, one wonders why someone with such exquisite literary insight as you would bother taking time off from solving all the world's problems to read and critique them, when you could be away reinitializing the transport buffers ?

I did that yesterday.

[molly bloom]

Quod erat demonstrandum....

[BlackCat]

Could someone please pull that cactus out of Molly's ass ?

@ Molly neither pun nor offense meant - it's just that your acid level seems pretty high - even your challenges in the PPT is mean

[laurentius]

We should stuff even more cactuses in Mollys arse

He is wonderful as he is! And only keeps getting better...

[Datajack Franit]

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by laurentius
We should stuff even more cactuses in Mollys arse

He is wonderful as he is! And only keeps getting better...

Oh - missed that - could someone in Molly's vicinity please deliver this at the apropriate place

[Dauphin]

Molly and Laz should come to head to head blows one day. Would make for the most resplendent exchange Poly will have seen.

[Gangerolf]

good old martin did the right thing. the church needed to change.

It wasn't his fault people did stupid **** later on