Air marshals shoot would-be bomber

[Cyclotron]

Originally posted by BlackCat
This story smells bad. It sounds like the guards are trying to get off the hook using the terrorist claim instead of explaining why they killed a person that wouldn't stop/follow orders.

Of course, if that turns out to be true...

I'm just saying that we can't know yet, and it's possible that the marshals were indeed doing their jobs.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
That still doesn't explain why he was on a plane when his wife knew he wasn't stable enough for it.

Supposedly people who go off their anti-BP meds often act more strangely then they ever did before. Suddenly going cold turkey causes very strange reactions. Unless she was a doctor or nurse or something how would she know what her husbands reaction would be? And that's assuming he told her before the flight started. More likely even she was shocked at how badly he was effected by going off his meds and didn't think he'd be so unstable.

[DinoDoc]

''She was very apologetic,'' one passenger, Mike Beshears, told The Associated Press of the wife. ``She was explaining to us as we sat there in the row, she felt it was her fault, that she had convinced him to get on board, that he wasn't ready. He was bipolar and didn't have his medications. She felt like she was to blame.''

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/13365357.htm

[Dinner]

OK, she knew he was off his meds but did she know he would act so out of character due to it?

[The Mad Viking]

I made my post based only on the thread starter. Now I was just guessing, but guess what?

The behaviour in question was completely consistent with the behaviour of a mentally unstable man.

And completely inconsistent with the behaviour of any known terrorists.

I did not blame the Air Marshalls in question for acting wrongly. I simply speculated. I still don't know, and likely will never know whether they acted wrongly. It seems unlikely anyone but the two Air Marshalls will ever know.

Law enforcement agencies in general do a very poor job on the admittedly very difficult task of dealing with the mentally ill. They are trained to act, not think, and they are trained that people must obey. For that reason, people who are mentally ill, or don't understand the language of the law-enforcement officers are rather likely to get themselves in trouble.

Of course, the (false) stereotype of the terrorist as a crazed madman probably didn't help.

It is very distressing that no passengers can corroborate the allegation that he yelled "I have a bomb". It's not clear whether the Air Marshall's even saw or heard his wife.

As far as all the critics of his wife,

It is excruciating to live with a bi-polar person, and simply impossible to keep them on their meds. Even in institutions, they find ways to avoid their meds. And the same individual may react very differently when they go off their meds from one instance to the next.

[Dis]

Originally posted by Oerdin
****. Wrong thread. Will some mod move those to the correct thread?

how many times is this in the past couple of days? It never gets old.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
That still doesn't explain why he was on a plane when his wife knew he wasn't stable enough for it.

Er, AFAIK not every BP goes into mania as soon as they are off their meds. People who suffer BP, IIUC, arent ALWAYS in either a Manic or Depressive state. Sometimes theyre just normal.

[Berzerker]

Air marshals can't sit and think about the logic of running around or out of the airplane with a bomb.

What bomb? This guy left a plane too quickly and the marshalls got suspicious. It remains to be seen if others heard him say he had a bomb. And to be chasing the guy without proper attire means there may be a delay in the suspect's ability to process "orders". Some guy in a hawaiin shirt is yelling something at you doesn't really inspire "I'm a cop, get down on the ground".

They don't have the luxury to spend time on that. They believed the person had a bomb, and when he failed to comply with their orders to get down, they opened fire. What exactly is it, MOBIUS, that you would like them to have done differently?

Shoot him in the leg...once...

[Sava]

Originally posted by Cyclotron
Air marshals can't sit and think about the logic of running around or out of the airplane with a bomb.

Actually, Air Marshals, and other law enforcement officials that are put in the position of dealing with such situations need to be able to deal with such situations better than you or I could. They should be able to think and analyze the situation and make that split second decision. That's what the training is for. That is what their job is.

They should not just shoot first and ask questions later. (in general, I'm not refering to this instance, because I didn't witness what happened, so I can't say if this is the case or not)

Because if they are just going to shoot someone like this when it is not clear if they are a threat or not, then clearly the current security measures need to be re-evaluated and different security methods need to be implemented.

As it stands, Air Marshals have killed more innocent people than they have stopped actual terrorists (AFAIK 1-0). But granted, there is not a large sample size with which to accurately judge things.

[Max Webster]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Didn't the France have things wrapped up so tight in French airports, so a person just simply can't walk onto a plane carrying a bag with a bomb in it before Richard Reid went and did it?

Yes but France doesn't have Bush's super sonic, ultra-sophisticated,highly-elite,multi-billion dollar Homeland Security sytem.

[Cyclotron]

Originally posted by Berzerker
What bomb? This guy left a plane too quickly and the marshalls got suspicious. It remains to be seen if others heard him say he had a bomb. And to be chasing the guy without proper attire means there may be a delay in the suspect's ability to process "orders". Some guy in a hawaiin shirt is yelling something at you doesn't really inspire "I'm a cop, get down on the ground".

Are you incapable of reading? Supposedly, they believed he had a bomb. And the whole point of the air marshal is that a would-be bomber or terrorist won't be able to recognize him, thus the disguise.

Shoot him in the leg...once...

Sorry, no. That's not how it works. If you believe somebody has a bomb, and isn't standing down, you take them out - you don't shoot at their leg, which you might well miss. Even if you hit, they're still capable of detonating the device.

[Cyclotron]

Originally posted by Sava
Actually, Air Marshals, and other law enforcement officials that are put in the position of dealing with such situations need to be able to deal with such situations better than you or I could. They should be able to think and analyze the situation and make that split second decision. That's what the training is for. That is what their job is.

Law enforcement officers also have an enormous responsibility - to protect the public when there may be very little time to act. I'm sure they are trained much better than you or I to deal with this situation, but you must remember that, if they miscalculate, they - and all those passengers - could be dead. I dismiss your ability to say "they should do this and that" out of hand. I'm amazed at the number of armchair air marshals we have here who can't seem to grasp that, when you are dealing with a madman who you believe to have a bomb, you can analyze his behavior with the same calm and care that is afforded to us, shooting our mouths off on an internet forum.

Because if they are just going to shoot someone like this when it is not clear if they are a threat or not, then clearly the current security measures need to be re-evaluated and different security methods need to be implemented.

They believed he had a bomb, therefore he was a clear threat. You are able to say "it's not clear they were a threat" only because of the benefit of hindsight.

[DRoseDARs]

That, and passengers are confirming none of them heard him say anything about a bomb despite authorities claiming he said he did.

[Cyclotron]

Originally posted by DRoseDARs
That, and passengers are confirming none of them heard him say anything about a bomb despite authorities claiming he said he did.

How does that change the fact that the marshals thought he did?

[DRoseDARs]

It all boils down to where he was shot. If he was on the plane and the passengers couldn't hear him say it, then the marshals are full of sh*t. If he was out of earshot of the other passengers (he'd have to get down onto the tarmac, but how could he have done that without getting shot beforehand?) then I might give the marshals the benefit of the doubt.