Abortion

[Jon Miller]

single parent or gay parents?

bad parent(s) or gay parents?

JM

[Ben Kenobi]

Choice... no parent or gay parents... which do you think the kid would choose?

In general or in particular? In particular can think of situations where the kid would be worse off with gay parents who abuse him, just as he would with any other kind of parents.

In general I would think the kid would wonder why he doesn't have a mother or a father. Why settle for the lesser of two evils, ming?

[Kontiki]

I'm curious - what are these things that can only be gleaned from a mother and/or father that two gay people could not provide?

[Kuciwalker]

The correct question is, what are these things that can only gleaned from an orphanage or a single mom or dad that two gay people could not provide?

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Read my earlier post on the criteria. It is enough to be a living human being to be considered a person.

Hm, okay. The living part is easy enough, but what's "human being?"

[Mrs. Tuberski]

Does it matter whether you have seen one in person? I don't think so. I'm not in the position to have one at my disposal, and like most folks, I have to rely on the work that other people have done. Also, you don't need to rely on just this one series, there are plenty embryology textbooks that use these same pictures to teach people about prenatal development

I dont know bk I guess all of us who live int he real world should look to the textbooks you talk of. Jeez since you know you have never seen a real life ultrasound. I guess next time i want to raise a child i will read the text book that follows the one u just described. Since all these said text books can teach us all how to raise kids and adopt kids and to abort kids. as you say. By the way where did you buy that text book bk? I need to get me one.
Oh when you see a real ultrasound and dont need a TEXTBOOK to tell you what you are seeing why dont you come have a chat with the pregnant mother that just came out said i cant have this baby caus emy father raped me and it his kid. I bet your text book does not discuss that

[Robert]

3. reason

2 weeks old babies don't have reason
mentally disabled adults sometimes have reason
very old people sometimes have no reason

4. the capacity to communicate

2 weeks old babies cannot communicate (except crying and sometimes smiling, but oftenly confusing both while the parents have no clue what's going on)

mentally disabled adults sometimes are incapable to communicate

Really old people are sometimes incapable to communicate

5. self awareness

2 weeks old babies are self aware?
Really mentally disabled people are selfaware?
really old people with Altzheimer are selfaware?

6. moral agency
2 weeks old babies......... etc. etc.

bottom line:
we can end the lifes of 2 weeks old babies, really mentally disturbed people and old people, perhaps if they have Altzheimer?

[Mrs. Tuberski]

Have you heard of the new 4D ultrasounds? They allow us to see movement too. Granted, one can come to any conclusion, but when we observe similar behaviour between newborns and the unborn, it leads to the conclusion that there cannot be much difference between the two. If we saw a picture of a newborn with his thumb in his mouth, wouldn't we automatically conclude that he was sucking his thumb?

well for one on a sonogram and i dont care if its 45D yu cant not tell were that fetus has that thumb all you can see is it seems to be touching the face. Once again say this is personal interperation. And I love to argue this point that baies cry in the womb how the hell can you tell can you see tears?? I find this obersvation to be a bit difficult since the fetus is in a bag of water.
I am not sure but last i checked tears were liquid.

Actually in the US, abortion is legal throughout all nine months of pregnancy. Of course that doesn't mean all doctors will perform the late ones, but when we are having a debate right now over whether the ban on partial birth abortions should be overturned, then it doesn't make sense to say that this is beyond the legal means.

Actually i didnt say it wasnt. First of all i did say you never seen it done since the woman has to go through the act of actual child birth anyway. For gods sake that fetus has to be expelled some how and at the age of 8 to nine months the woman has to go through labor and delivery. I doubt this woman is gonna carry a child for nine months and then say ya know what i a gonna abort this fetus cause i dont want to be a mom now. especialy if she has to go through the labor and delivery anyway. So your comment of the fact that abortions are legal thru 9 months has nothing to do with what i have even suggested as to why i dont agree with you. You can pull out every moral and relegious arguement you want the simple fact is i dont agree with you and that you as a man have no choice what a woman does with her body. If you did it would be okfor me to say to you, no you can not have ur testicles removed cause i want to get pregnant I dont care if you have testicular cancer and it can kill you. Cause what i have read so far it seems ok if the fetus threatens the mother as long as the father wants it

[Ming]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
In general or in particular? In particular can think of situations where the kid would be worse off with gay parents who abuse him, just as he would with any other kind of parents.

Using that kind of logic, nobody should be allowed to adopt since abuse can happen from straight or gay parents. And there are FAR more examples of staight child abuse than gay child abuse... And probably FAR more examples in homes where people consider themselves religious...

In general I would think the kid would wonder why he doesn't have a mother or a father. Why settle for the lesser of two evils, ming?

I think the kids would be happy to have parents than not have parents. But you never seem to answer that one... The worst evil here is NO parents.

[Reader81]

It's best to for you to die then ask Lord God though Jesus Chirst whatever it's Abortion are all right or not if he allow you to ask!

[Robert]

Ming: And probably FAR more examples in homes where people consider themselves religious...

Abuse happens as often among christians as among non-christians, which is worse enough.

About the issue of gay-parents, christians should really seperate two issues! The Bible says several things about sexual intercourse between two people of the same sex. It says nothing about how many male or female parents a child should or should not have.

Of course a kid can better have two caring fathers then no parents at all. I'd say that the best thing for any kid would be to live with the natural father and the natural mother who're living in peace together and love their child. Everything else is at least 2nd best, but it's impossible to give a general idea on what is better and what is worse.

I'd go with the: if a kid has no (natural) parents, please let it be raised by people who love it.

Anyway, it's a little bit weird to see that much people who are pro-abortion talk about how kids should be raised by people who love it.
Kill baby A. but baby B. should be raised by people who love it. It makes no sence people.

Abortion is the black side of our civilization, and everybody accepts it just because everybody accepts it. It's as burning witches in the middle ages. If you would only open your eyes and stop with those silly, morbid excuses.

[Az]

ignore

[Cyclotron]

This isn't exactly germane to what's being discussed now, but since this is a general Abortion thread I don't feel too bad about throwing it out there.

With acknowledgement that the moral situation of abortion is very murky, or at least murky enough to cause some quite bitter arguments, I'd like to set the moral issue aside for a moment...

Even if you accept that abortion is a very bad thing, it seems that the reality must be faced that, should abortions be banned, they will not dissappear - as many pro-choice people argue, they will continue in a 'black market' fashion without the kind of protection they have now by being legal. Though making abortion illegal seems certain to lower the amount of abortions by some amount, I would ask if the "safe, legal, and rare" crowd has a point here - from a realist perspective, would we be better off discouraging rather than criminalizing abortion?

[Ben Kenobi]

And I love to argue this point that baies cry in the womb how the hell can you tell can you see tears?? I find this obersvation to be a bit difficult since the fetus is in a bag of water.

I am not sure but last i checked tears were liquid.

You can usually tell from someone's facial expression if they are crying without necessarily seeing tears. You've had kids, and I bet if you plugged your ears, you would have no difficulty understanding their faces when they cry.

First of all i did say you never seen it done since the woman has to go through the act of actual child birth anyway.

One doesn't have to watch the birth of a child to see an ultrasound. There are plenty on file in any medical library. There is a whole field on just the subject of development inside the womb.

For gods sake that fetus has to be expelled some how and at the age of 8 to nine months the woman has to go through labor and delivery. I doubt this woman is gonna carry a child for nine months and then say ya know what i a gonna abort this fetus cause i dont want to be a mom now. especialy if she has to go through the labor and delivery anyway.

I see newspaper articles about women who do just that, they have their baby and throw their baby in the trash. If this happens, why wouldn't there be some women who would prefer a late term abortion to the responsibility of having to take care of a child? I agree with you that it doesn't make sense, but people do things all the time that do not make good sense.

So your comment of the fact that abortions are legal thru 9 months has nothing to do with what i have even suggested as to why i dont agree with you.

Actually I would say the opposite. It is an area where we agree upon with respect to abortion. Where we disagree are with the earlier term ones, that's all.

You can pull out every moral and relegious arguement you want the simple fact is i dont agree with you and that you as a man have no choice what a woman does with her body.

If I am a father the mother has the right to decide what I do with my body through child support. Society does say that the mother has the right to decide that the father should support her, so why shouldn't the father be able to say that he wants to take care of the child? Yes that places a demand on the mother to carry her child, but so does child support place a demand on the father to work to support his child.

Cause what i have read so far it seems ok if the fetus threatens the mother as long as the father wants it

No, I made no distinction as to whether the father wants the child or not. If the mother's life is in danger and there is no way to save both the life of the child and the mother, as in a c-section, then an abortion would be permissible. The second part is that it should not be necessary to rip the child to shreds in doing so, as you see in an ectopic pregnancy, where they pull the tiny embryo intact from the womb of her mother.

[Ben Kenobi]

Using that kind of logic, nobody should be allowed to adopt since abuse can happen from straight or gay parents. And there are FAR more examples of staight child abuse than gay child abuse... And probably FAR more examples in homes where people consider themselves religious...

Yes, but that's not the question now is it ming? Does the proportion of abuse say the same thing. It is easy to have a higher number of abuses when you have the overwhelming majority of the adoptions.

I think the kids would be happy to have parents than not have parents. But you never seem to answer that one... The worst evil here is NO parents.

No, the worst evil is abuse ming.