Gordon Campbell is evil

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Wezil
I don't like government being in business. I want government to do only those things government is required for...

One thing about living in Asia is that you learn how stupid this idea is.

If government departments can make a profit then all the better for the taxpayer. Every dollar in profit means one less dollar the government needs from the taxpayer.

Hong Kong's subway system is largely financed by selling property around a new subway station. The place I live in is part of a complex built by the subway company that only exists because the company built a station here. And people want to live here because there is a subway station. So the company profits from real estate sales and it gets riders.

The People's Liberation Army gets about half of its funding from companies it owns so that's less of a drain on taxpayers and it has the added bonus of the PLA being more interested in making money than making war.

As for essential services, a strike of a couple of months isn't going to harm them in the long run. so there's nothing essential there, not like say if doctors went on strike for a week. If that happens people die. Calling teacher essential service in this context is stupid.

[Wezil]

Someone prepared to actually discuss the issue rather than piss in the wind. Thank you.

Originally posted by Tingkai


One thing about living in Asia is that you learn how stupid this idea is.

If government departments can make a profit then all the better for the taxpayer. Every dollar in profit means one less dollar the government needs from the taxpayer.

So where does this stop? Should they run a chain of convenience stores? How about liquor stores like Ontario does? Let's try gas stations. Oops! Already tried that didn't we?

I don't want my government to make a "profit". I want my government to collect taxes for what it needs to do. No more. The problem with government involvement in non-essential services is that eventually they end up in competition witht the private sector (eg Canada Post vs the courier companies) or they operate as a monopoly. While this may be fine for the government, it does nothing for the consumer or for a level playing field for business. It's tough to compete with government - they (we) have deeper pockets than most businesses.

Hong Kong's subway system is largely financed by selling property around a new subway station. The place I live in is part of a complex built by the subway company that only exists because the company built a station here. And people want to live here because there is a subway station. So the company profits from real estate sales and it gets riders.

I'm not sure I follow the $$ here but I'll try. I assume the "company" is government owned? Sounds like the government selling what we would call "Crown land" and turning that money into infrastructure investment. This would be a somewhat different issue and quite frankly doesn't bother me nearly so much.

The People's Liberation Army gets about half of its funding from companies it owns so that's less of a drain on taxpayers and it has the added bonus of the PLA being more interested in making money than making war.

My response would be the same as the first paragraph. I will add, anything that keeps the PLA from fighting is a good thing but we don't have that problem with the Cdn forces.

As for essential services, a strike of a couple of months isn't going to harm them in the long run. so there's nothing essential there, not like say if doctors went on strike for a week. If that happens people die. Calling teacher essential service in this context is stupid.

An argument can be made that they aren't "essential". I can certainly appreciate that they aren't essential in the same sense police or firefighters are. I consider them essential in that they provide a service best provided by government and that they operate with a near monopoly (all the students in BC can't suddenly enroll in private schools).

[Hot Mustard]

I swear it sometimes seems like there's an underground agreement between the major unions of BC, with each taking turns to strike. Civil workers, Nurses, Teachers, Doctors, Ferry Workers - it just seems to cycle over and over.

Please note I have nothing against any of these groups and I definitely think the teachers (and students) need better working conditions. I just got real tired, as a citizen (former citizen now), of the seemingly constant strikes and nonsense.

Am I alone on this? Do any of our current BC residents think these groups (and the government) need to solve the problems once, and not have to repeat the process every few years?

[Wezil]

Binding arbitration for all essential services.

[Ben Kenobi]

What a logician you'd make.

I say that this strike has increased my dislike of him and you draw the conclusion from that I'm taking the teachers' side because I dislike Campbell.

I'm assuming that you didn't hold Campbell in high regard prior to the strike.

If you did my argument would fall apart.

[Drake Tungsten]

One thing about living in Asia is that you learn how stupid this idea is.

I respectfully disagree.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten

One thing about living in Asia is that you learn how stupid this idea is.

I respectfully disagree.

Why?

[notyoueither]

Can you not see the possible problems when the guys with the guns in a... less than open regime are the competition for private (or collective) enterprise, Tingkai?

[Tingkai]

The irony is that I'm a socialist arguing for a more a business-oriented government and you're a conservative arguing against that idea.

Originally posted by Wezil
So where does this stop? Should they run a chain of convenience stores? How about liquor stores like Ontario does? Let's try gas stations. Oops! Already tried that didn't we?

Things might have changed, but for decades, the LCBOs and beer stores were operated on a not-for-profit basis, same as most other government operations.

The best government businesses in Asia are the ones that are not monopolies. With the LCBOs and Beer stores, there should be private competition and the two should be partially privitized.

One of the two subway systems in Hong Kong, the MTRC, is a listed company. Initial shares were sold at about $9. Now worth $15. The government still holds a big chunk of the shares so it has a paper profit on the value of the shares, and it gets dividends. The MTRC is building subway lines on the Mainland creating additional sources of profit.

Singapore has a government investment fund, with IIRC $10 billion in assests. It pays the fund managers competitive salaries so that they return a profit. It invests in a wide range of Singaporean businesses and makes money for the government. It also invests in areas the government wants to develop.

Originally posted by Wezil
I don't want my government to make a "profit". I want my government to collect taxes for what it needs to do. No more.

And you end up paying high taxes. One of the main reasons Hong Kong has a low income tax rate and no sales tax is that it earn revenues in other areas rather than just relying on taxation.

Originally posted by Wezil
The problem with government involvement in non-essential services is that eventually they end up in competition witht the private sector (eg Canada Post vs the courier companies)

Competition leads to lower prices for consumers.

There's no such thing as a level playing field in business. In most sectors there's a giant corporation: Microsoft, Wal-Mart, Time-Warner, etc.

Compared to Fedex, Canada Post is a small player in the market. And the amount of money the Canadian government has is probably nothing compared to say a massive corporation like Nestle or Toyota.

Originally posted by Wezil
I'm not sure I follow the $$ here but I'll try. I assume the "company" is government owned? Sounds like the government selling what we would call "Crown land" and turning that money into infrastructure investment. This would be a somewhat different issue and quite frankly doesn't bother me nearly so much.

It's a bit more than that because, like I said above, the MTRC is a privitized corportation.

Originally posted by Wezil
My response would be the same as the first paragraph. I will add, anything that keeps the PLA from fighting is a good thing but we don't have that problem with the Cdn forces.

A funny thing is a couple of years ago, Beijing made a public statement criticizing the PLA for focusing too much on business and not enough on the fighting side.

Originally posted by Wezil
I consider them essential in that they provide a service best provided by government and that they operate with a near monopoly

If a private company locks out it workers, or its workers go on strike, the effects on the public are the same by your definition.

Dammit, the NHL IS an essential service.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Tingkai
The irony is that I'm a socialist arguing for a more a business-oriented government and you're a conservative arguing against that idea.

Being in business and being business oriented are two entirely different things.

Being in business leads to some massive **** ups. There are some very recent examples from the federal Liberals on that score.

[Drake Tungsten]

Why?

There's plenty of examples in Japan of why the government being involved in business is not a good idea, the postal service being the most prominent. It creates massive opportunities for corruption.