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Originally posted by DanS
I agree. Just that no Jews that I know of have made a stink about it.
I agree. Just that no Jews that I know of have made a stink about it.
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I wouldnt make a stink, precisely because its my understanding that the book is supposed to be holy to the witness swearing on it, NOT to the jury or the general public."A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber -
You dumb fvck. Read what I posted. I said that they shouldn't swear on the bible. Nobody should.What if they find it offensive to have to swear on the bible?I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891Comment
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To me as an atheist, you swearing on the Bible means nothing to me because I view your holy book as varying degrees of myths, morals, and poor translation. But I know what the ceremony means to you as a way of enforcing your trust. It's at least as useful in making sure you tell the truth as making you affirm or swear on any other book or making you give a boy scouts oath, from my point of view.Originally posted by DanS
It's also to reinforce to the public the seriousness of what is about to be testified. If somebody swears on the Koran, that means nothing to me as a christian.
A muslim swearing on the Koran isn't any different from a Christian swearing on the Bible or a Jew on the Torah.Exult in your existence, because that very process has blundered unwittingly on its own negation. Only a small, local negation, to be sure: only one species, and only a minority of that species; but there lies hope. [...] Stand tall, Bipedal Ape. The shark may outswim you, the cheetah outrun you, the swift outfly you, the capuchin outclimb you, the elephant outpower you, the redwood outlast you. But you have the biggest gifts of all: the gift of understanding the ruthlessly cruel process that gave us all existence [and the] gift of revulsion against its implications.
-Richard DawkinsComment
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T'was Boris' point. Your post needs a little of that DanS magic applied to it.Originally posted by DanS
I respect others' belief, but I don't share it.
We're talking North Carolina here. The vast majority are christians. See JohnT's point.
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Swearing an oath is a public ritual. You can't be a neutral observer in this; rather you are a participant. If somebody swears on the Koran, then I cannot fully participate in that ritual and hence it loses power.To me as an atheist, you swearing on the Bible means nothing to me because I view your holy book as varying degrees of myths, morals, and poor translation. But I know what the ceremony means to you as a way of enforcing your trust. It's at least as useful in making sure you tell the truth as making you affirm or swear on any other book or making you give a boy scouts oath, from my point of view.I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891Comment
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Are Christians allowed to swear on bibles in Islamic countries? Last I checked, Christians aren't even allowed to practice openly. I don't think swearing on the bible violates the freedom of conscience of anyone, since everyone, regardless off their religious affiliation has to swear on one. Atheists, and skeptics included.Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
"Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
2015 APOLYTON FANTASY FOOTBALL CHAMPION!Comment
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In 1990, appx. 13,000 Muslims were living in North Carolina:
I do not stand by the accuracy of the data, but that's what I got, so...Comment
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No, actually it was your point, although perhaps inadvertent.Originally posted by JohnT
T'was Boris' point. Your post needs a little of that DanS magic applied to it.
You said that you would swear on whatever scripture the jurors believe in, not what you believe in.
I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891Comment
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You could be a disinterested observer.Originally posted by DanS
Swearing an oath is a public ritual. You can't be a neutral observer in this; rather you are a participant. If somebody swears on the Koran, then I cannot fully participate in that ritual and hence it loses power.
While I agree with you that it should be affirmations only, I really don't understand why the person making the oath has to conform to your standards to make their oath have merit.I'm consitently stupid- Japher
I think that opinion in the United States is decidedly different from the rest of the world because we have a free press -- by free, I mean a virgorously presented right wing point of view on the air and available to all.- NedComment
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Ahhh. Now I get it.
Next time, don't be so damnably oblique!
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Once not everybody is christian, it starts to look like state establishment of religion, and is unconstitutional.
You sure about that, DanS? First of all, this argument doesn't violate the establishment clause since the state is not endorsing a religious group. If they made everyone attend a Catholic service, or they gave special benefits to Catholicism, that others did not receive, then it would trigger the clause. However, endorsing Christian groups does not violate the clause. Given the responses in this thread, it seems that it's hardly an endorsement of the bible, if everyone is allowed to swear on one, regardless of what one believes.
Secondly, how does swearing an oath on a bible violate the conscience rights of an atheist? If one is to be consistant, they would have to swear on nothing.
Thirdly, there are some Christians who have a problem with swearing any oath whatsoever to the state, for the explicit reason that they are to let their yes be yes and their no, no. Mennonites are among that group, and this is one reason why they tend to avoid the judicial system if at all possible.Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
"Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
2015 APOLYTON FANTASY FOOTBALL CHAMPION!Comment
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But I'm not a neutral observer. I participate in the fact that I know a religious person swearing on something they consider holy is meaningful to them, whether it be a Christian on a Bible or a Muslim on a Koran. It's the fact that I know they consider it meaningful is what allows me to consider their words more trustworthy, even if I don't even believe that those books are holy.Originally posted by DanS
Swearing an oath is a public ritual. You can't be a neutral observer in this; rather you are a participant. If somebody swears on the Koran, then I cannot fully participate in that ritual and hence it loses power.
And Ben, we're not talking about Christians in Islamic countries (of which the infringments on freedom are documented and I'd widely condemn if we ever talked about it). We're dealing with Muslims in a country that's supposed to have seperation of Church and State. Swearing on the Bible only has meaning to me if you're a Christian doing it. If I swore on the Bible, I wouldn't feel bound to tell the truth because of that act. I'm bound to tell the truth because...I dunno, service to Society. The Greater Good. The threat of Perjury.Exult in your existence, because that very process has blundered unwittingly on its own negation. Only a small, local negation, to be sure: only one species, and only a minority of that species; but there lies hope. [...] Stand tall, Bipedal Ape. The shark may outswim you, the cheetah outrun you, the swift outfly you, the capuchin outclimb you, the elephant outpower you, the redwood outlast you. But you have the biggest gifts of all: the gift of understanding the ruthlessly cruel process that gave us all existence [and the] gift of revulsion against its implications.
-Richard DawkinsComment
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If you are a citizen of the United States, then you cannot be a disinterested observer in any case happening in North Carolina. You're fully invested in our judicial system.Originally posted by Theben
You could be a disinterested observer.
While I agree with you that it should be affirmations only, I really don't understand why the person making the oath has to conform to your standards to make their oath have merit.I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891Comment
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Whatever commands the judiciary system of islamic countries does not prevent the US to adopt oaths which are not offending the religious beliefs of minorities. It is not true that atheists and skeptics have to swear on a book, they are authorise to limit themselves to an affirmation (*serment sur l'honneur*)Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Are Christians allowed to swear on bibles in Islamic countries? Last I checked, Christians aren't even allowed to practice openly. I don't think swearing on the bible violates the freedom of conscience of anyone, since everyone, regardless off their religious affiliation has to swear on one. Atheists, and skeptics included.Statistical anomaly.
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.Comment
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I think this view has some merit, but let's face facts. Swearing on a koran might mean something different than swearing on a Bible or swearing on a portrait of Vishnu or whatever. Since I am not a full participant in the ritual, I cannot know the full import of their oath.But I'm not a neutral observer. I participate in the fact that I know a religious person swearing on something they consider holy is meaningful to them, whether it be a Christian on a Bible or a Muslim on a Koran. It's the fact that I know they consider it meaningful is what allows me to consider their words more trustworthy, even if I don't even believe that those books are holy.I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891Comment
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