Canadian Politics - Healthcare

[Ben Kenobi]

It is an interesting question, as to whether there is a right to health care in Canada. I don't see it as a right, but as something voluntarily offered and agreed upon by Canada. Making it a right isn't really going to help things.

[Tingkai]

Making it a right would prevent politicians from cutting medicare funding. Of course, it is impossible to have no waiting lists, but we should have reasonable limits on the time people have to wait.

Canada is a wealthy country. It can afford to adequate health care a right and what reasons are there not to do so.

[Ben Kenobi]

First of all, is there a right to medical care? Should governments be required to finance medicare in it's current form?

The system is not working right now in Canada, as we see from the waitlists, and making it even more of a sacred cow that cannot be touched or altered is not a solution to the problems.

Even if there is a right to medical care, it is not necessarily true that we must keep medicare the way it is, in fact, it could be contrary to the right to ensure the destruction of medicare in Canada.

Yes, we are a wealthy nation, but health care is by far, the single largest expenditure.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
First of all, is there a right to medical care?

Apparently, there is in Quebec there.

But what possible reason would Conservative have for objecting to this right.?

If someone is sick then they should be taken care of within, or course, the reasonable limits that we apply to anyone else. That to me is a basic right.

Providing that basic right would not harm anyone.

The Canadian health care system is working, contrary to what you say. It is highly efficient compared to the U.S. system.

[Ben Kenobi]

Is our health care more efficient? I don't see such long wait lists for the provision of care in the United States, and we pay more per capita than the US does on health care. The system is not working here in Canada, and something needs to be done to fix the system.

If someone is sick then they should be taken care of within, or course, the reasonable limits that we apply to anyone else. That to me is a basic right.

Providing that basic right would not harm anyone.

When St. Leo words the right as 'protection from pain' I see problems.

First of all, pain is a necessary part of life. The only people who feel no pain are dead people, and I don't think the supposed right to health care, should first enshrine a right to die.

Second of all, I see many things getting bundled into the right to health care. The first being reproductive rights, which of course, also means that abortion becomes a right here in Canada.

You are right that such provision of care should do no harm to anyone, but you have far more faith in the innovators than I have.

[Ben Kenobi]

Intergovernmental Affairs Minister Benoit Pelletier said the province would consider using the notwithstanding clause in Quebec's constitution as an alternative to abiding by the court's decision.

Gee, why is it ok for Quebec to use the notwithstanding clause, and not ok for Alberta to do the same? Is the notwithstanding clause, 'distinct society'?

[Tingkai]

Do a google search and it shows the Canadian system is superior.

Canadians pay less per capita on health care than the United States.

In 2002, the latest year for which comparable data are available, the United States spent $5,267 on health care for each man, woman and child in the population. Of this, $2,364, or 45 percent, was government spending, mainly on Medicare and Medicaid. Canada spent $2,931 per person, of which $2,048 came from the government.

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/041505H.shtml

"In 1999, health administration costs totaled at least $294.3 billion in the United States, or $1,059 per capita, as compared with $307 per capita in Canada. "http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/short/349/8/768

"Canada spends just 10.2 percent of its gross domestic product on health care services for all its citizens, the United States spends 14.1 percent"

http://worldpolicy.org/globalrights/econrights/canada-health.html

That was from 1995.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


Gee, why is it ok for Quebec to use the notwithstanding clause, and not ok for Alberta to do the same? Is the notwithstanding clause, 'distinct society'?

What are you talking about? Alberta has the same right as Quebec to use the notwithstanding clause

[Ben Kenobi]

Good point Tingkai.

I was under the mistaken impression that we spend more than the US on health care.

In 2002, the latest year for which comparable data are available, the United States spent $5,267 on health care for each man, woman and child in the population. Of this, $2,364, or 45 percent, was government spending, mainly on Medicare and Medicaid. Canada spent $2,931 per person, of which $2,048 came from the government.

So that's not a whole lot of difference between the spending. We are spending somewhat less per capita than the Americans for much poorer health care. It's not fair to lump private care, when comparing government spending on health care.

[Ben Kenobi]

What are you talking about? Alberta has the same right as Quebec to use the notwithstanding clause

Not without being blasted by the media for violating the charter of rights and freedoms. I'm surprised there hasn't been a peep about Quebec wanting to use the notwithstanding clause to 'obstruct justice'

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


Not without being blasted by the media for violating the charter of rights and freedoms. I'm surprised there hasn't been a peep about Quebec wanting to use the notwithstanding clause to 'obstruct justice'

The media reports. I doubt anyone ever one ever said that Klein's move violated the charter because all provinces have the right to use the notwithstanding clause.

In Alberta's case, the Liberals were up in arms. If nothing is being said about Quebec, it is a) people have not had time to react; or b) the Liberals are sleeping on the job; or c) the Liberals haven't figured out what strategy to take.

Option c is the most likely.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
So that's not a whole lot of difference between the spending. We are spending somewhat less per capita than the Americans for much poorer health care. It's not fair to lump private care, when comparing government spending on health care.

Of course, it's fair to compare private spending. If you want to know how much a country spends on health care then you have to look at how much it spends, regardless of whether it is private or public.

The Americans spend twice as much per person on health care compared to Canadians. And yet, Americans have a lower life expectancy. That says a lot.

[Kontiki]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
So that's not a whole lot of difference between the spending. We are spending somewhat less per capita than the Americans for much poorer health care. It's not fair to lump private care, when comparing government spending on health care.

That's some of the most rediculous logic I've ever seen. You want to claim that the US has better health care based on their total spend, but don't want to acknowledge the massive private portion of the spending. If you wanted to be fair and honest, imagine the US health care system with the same level of government spending, but strip away all private spending. Then see how the two systems would compare.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Kontiki
Are all arrests in the US based on the police kicking down someone's door?

Only if they're Canadians.

[Voltaire]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi So that's not a whole lot of difference between the spending. We are spending somewhat less per capita than the Americans for much poorer health care. It's not fair to lump private care, when comparing government spending on health care.

That’s not true. The American system is much better… if you happen to be fortunate enough to be rich. Many Americans receive very poor services due to their socio-economic status. The Canadian system has its problems, but I hardly see how moving toward an American style system is the solution. Those on the right keep spouting how the system is broken and needs to be fixed, except in their minds ‘fixing’ the system means dismantling it. I do not think that there is anyone in Canada who would deny that the system needs improvement, but I hardly see change in the direction of private healthcare as the best means to go about achieving the ends Canadians want to see.