This is Not America

[chequita guevara]

Flubber, you keep forgetting you live in a much more civilized society.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Flubber, you keep forgetting you live in a much more civilized society.

I'm not always certain about that . . . although our RCMP are generally well respected but I'm willing to bet you could find Calgary folks that claim to have been beaten or abused by police. I saw such a piece just an few days ago with claims from someone during their arrest on a public drunk and disorderly charge

Plus most of the G-8 protestors seemd to have come from the US and elsewhere in Canada. I think that economic affluence has crippled the local anti-everything community. I know that the protesters were generally disappointed with their turnouts . . . But that could have been because the actual heads of states were at Kananaskis and the protesters could only get within 20 miles of them sicne the only roads in were blocked .

I guess they could have gone overland but that would likely have caused a rift itself since the land is unspoiled parkland so any destruction of it would have sent the greenies into a rage

[Flubber]

On the issue of the id and bag search, I would have complied-- its just easier and I have nothing to hide.

Its the same if a police officer asked to look in my car trunk-- I'd let him. I could validly refuse but then he could decide to require my vehicle undergo a safety inspection or something that could take hours.

Even if they do nothing that violoates my rights, the police have enough discretionary powers that I see no point in peeving them. I actually have a lot iof respect for the police. I think they have a very difficult job and most of them do it very well. But like any job, there will be a few egomaniacs and pure a**holes that will misuse their power. Since I don't know which officers those are, I'm nice to all of them.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Flubber


Why shouldn't the "establishment" be able to meet "unmolested"??

Because they're an anti-democratic neoliberal elite?

How would you feel if the rightists decided to storm your meetings?? I'd be willing to bet if there was a big communist meeting that was going to be protested by rabid righties, these same police would be there to protect your meeting places and keep the righties out

Hee Hee.

In Genoa rightists were doing just that, to the approval of the police.

I saw a lot of protests and police responses when the G-8 met in Calgary and Kananskis. I thought that generally the Canadian police were very very restrained in their response. Essentially what I witnessed was protestors given pretty free rein except when they attempted to storm a building. . . Various parades were permitted to block streets-- all the police did was block certain streets to attempt to minimize the impact on traffic ( they had a groups that would leapfrog the parade to create blockades to protect the protestors from traffic etc plus the police had spoken with the leaders about the planned route agian for their protection and so they could ensure security)

Putting up barriers to keep them away from their own elected leaders. Jeez....

[Q Classic]

Originally posted by Zkribbler
Khurgastan.

Kyrgyzstan.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by DanS
OzzyKP doesn't mention the stellar intelligence that the police had on these folks and what they were planning to do and that it was the same folks who had started riots in Seattle only a short time before.

It's not hard to find out their plans since they put them on their web sites. Or at least most protestor groups do.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Agathon


Putting up barriers to keep them away from their own elected leaders. Jeez....

You don't seriously advocate unfettered access to world leaders do you ?? and by unfettered I mean a mob of hundreds with no possibility to do proper security.

I saw the G-8 protesters and I really didn't want them in my office either

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Oerdin


It's not hard to find out their plans since they put them on their web sites. Or at least most protestor groups do.

Their very nature is that they have to publicize their plans or many of the rank and file won't know where to come. Some leaders or even some loners might have plans that weren't necessarily shared (ie vandalize a building)

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Agathon


Because they're an anti-democratic neoliberal elite?

Assume you are correct concerning what they are. Do not they have a right to hold a meeting without some self-appointed crusader breaking down the door??

I also don't see much democratic in the door breakers either. Were they elected? By whom? and they purport to speak for the people yet I am one of the people and I support very little that the protestors stand for.* yet if I and a couple of thousand people held a rally adjacent to the lefty protestors and acted exactly as they did, I believe but don't know that you would denounce us as tools ofoppression or some such drivel

* Note it is difficult to generally support or oppose what the protestors stand for as they are a mix of a variety of causes and ideologies that are consistent only in that they don't like the existing government much.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Flubber


You don't seriously advocate unfettered access to world leaders do you ?? and by unfettered I mean a mob of hundreds with no possibility to do proper security.

I saw the G-8 protesters and I really didn't want them in my office either

I advocate the right to confront the people who are making decisions that affect the whole world. I don't advocate them being allowed in to the convention centre or anything like that, but I detest the attempts to marginalize protesters under the thin excuse of "security".

I don't support the right of the police to "pre-emptively" arrest protest organizers on trumped up charges, only to release them later as happened to Jaggi Singh here in Canada.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Flubber

Assume you are correct concerning what they are. Do not they have a right to hold a meeting without some self-appointed crusader breaking down the door??

You're exaggerating. No-one apart from a few diehard anarchists wants to do that, and the police have more than enough resources to deal with them without imperilling the right of ordinary people to protest in public spaces.

I also don't see much democratic in the door breakers either. Were they elected? By whom? and they purport to speak for the people yet I am one of the people and I support very little that the protestors stand for.* yet if I and a couple of thousand people held a rally adjacent to the lefty protestors and acted exactly as they did, I believe but don't know that you would denounce us as tools ofoppression or some such drivel

I'd like to point out to you that the actions of people like Ghandi were referred to in this manner. Surely you don't accept that he was some evil criminal working against the public good.

I didn't realize that I had to be elected to exercise my right to walk down a public street waving a placard declaring my views.

* Note it is difficult to generally support or oppose what the protestors stand for as they are a mix of a variety of causes and ideologies that are consistent only in that they don't like the existing government much.

That's just false. All of them are diverse and come from diverse backgrounds, but there is general agreement in what they are protesting about. That is: the bypassing and corruption of democratic politics by transnationals. I don't think that there is a reasonably aware person in Canada who doesn't know that.

You may not agree with their views, but why should they not be allowed to express them without public streets being barricaded and being attacked by the cops. And don't tell me the protesters start it – I take it you haven't seen the famous pepper spraying video.

[Hueij]

Che, congrats on your letter. But was it really smart to write it? You know, with Homeland Security and all that? I mean, Ned may be reading this thread too...

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Agathon


I'd like to point out to you that the actions of people like Ghandi were referred to in this manner. Surely you don't accept that he was some evil criminal working against the public good.

Nope. I also don't think that the bulk of the protestors have the character of Ghandi but I do believe the bulk of protestors are non-violent--

Originally posted by Agathon


I didn't realize that I had to be elected to exercise my right to walk down a public street waving a placard declaring my views.

You don't and this comment is dishonest as I said no such thing. My comment was along the lines that protestors often speak of the rights of the "people" to be heard . . . I just don't know what gives these particular protesters the role as "spokesman for the people"

Originally posted by Agathon

That's just false. All of them are diverse and come from diverse backgrounds, but there is general agreement in what they are protesting about. That is: the bypassing and corruption of democratic politics by transnationals. I don't think that there is a reasonably aware person in Canada who doesn't know that.

How is that different than my statement that they are pretty much united in their dislike over how government is currently run? You were merely more specific. Now thats the easy part. Now ask all the protesters what the current system should be replaced by . I'm sure the anarchists, environmentalists, libertarians and communists would have a fun time with that one.

Originally posted by Agathon

You may not agree with their views, but why should they not be allowed to express them without public streets being barricaded and being attacked by the cops. And don't tell me the protesters start it – I take it you haven't seen the famous pepper spraying video.

Many demonstrations get charged. Tell you what . . . I'll agree the police "start it" sometimes if you agree that in some cases its the protesters fault. OR do you have a vison that all the protesters are all benevolent wonderful people that would never commit and act of violence??

Oh and I've seen dozens of videos . . in some protetors look bad and in others the police do . . . what's your point


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In all this I see no problem with people being allowed to assemble to exercise their free speech. But your right to speak cannot supersede my right to listen for only so long as I choose. . . and if protesters want to block streets, trains, buses etc, they are essentially imprisoning me I would expect the police to act.

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by Hueij
Che, congrats on your letter. But was it really smart to write it? You know, with Homeland Security and all that? I mean, Ned may be reading this thread too...

Nah, I guess that Che is pretty secure if he only have to worry about the Nedaverse. If they really tried, I gues that they would be found lost somewhere in Alaska.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Flubber

Nope. I also don't think that the bulk of the protestors have the character of Ghandi but I do believe the bulk of protestors are non-violent--

Lots of people have the character of Ghandhi, they just don't get the opportunity to let the world know about it.

You don't and this comment is dishonest as I said no such thing. My comment was along the lines that protestors often speak of the rights of the "people" to be heard . . . I just don't know what gives these particular protesters the role as "spokesman for the people"

Who said that? They speak for themselves and those who agree. Sorry, you don't need permission for that. When did you come over so fascist?

How is that different than my statement that they are pretty much united in their dislike over how government is currently run? You were merely more specific.

Obviously. I told you exactly what they didn't like.

Now thats the easy part. Now ask all the protesters what the current system should be replaced by . I'm sure the anarchists, environmentalists, libertarians and communists would have a fun time with that one.

More representative international institutions. The IMF and World Bank should be reformed for a start. That's what they'll say.

Perhaps if you lived in the real world instead of in the middle of nowhere, this would seem more obvious.

Many demonstrations get charged. Tell you what . . . I'll agree the police "start it" sometimes if you agree that in some cases its the protesters fault. OR do you have a vison that all the protesters are all benevolent wonderful people that would never commit and act of violence??

Not at all. But the police should never do it, simply because they're the police and aren't supposed to attack citizens – officers of the law have a greater responsibility than the average citizen. If an anarchist throws a brick at a cop he gets punished, if a cop does the same, most of the time nothing happens. There's a massive inequality of power here.

Not only do the police sometimes start it, but in a number of cases the "protesters" who provoke police violence are in fact undercover police.

In all this I see no problem with people being allowed to assemble to exercise their free speech. But your right to speak cannot supersede my right to listen for only so long as I choose. . . and if protesters want to block streets, trains, buses etc, they are essentially imprisoning me I would expect the police to act.

Actually you don't have the right to force people to move unless they are deliberately blocking you, and that hasn't been the case in most marches I've been on. Sure, it might annoy drivers, but its no different from other heavy traffic. People have the right to gather on the street and march if they want to. If you don't like it, tough ****.

But I really can't see what your point is. You've typed and typed, but seem to have come up with nothing other than sad old tory whining.