German Ignorance

[child of Thor]

Originally posted by Muad'Dib

Child of Thor, I am. But damned if I remain silent and let ass holes equate genocide with accidents. And I congratuate you as one one of the few who sees the difference.

well my point was that its very often difficult to tell the diference - we may get told its an accident(as i'm sure they did about many terrible things in Nazi germany at the time), ie we get misled often by our governments, maybe more so in our western democracies as those governments HAVE to lie to us or we would vote them out.

Thats what i was getting at - i did indeed sort of have my tongue in my cheek, sorry to mislead you(which is more than G.Bush will ever say to you i'm sure ).

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Wycoff

If anything, I think that the world has given Germany more than its fair share of guilt. What countries haven't commited atrocities on others? How about the Belgians in the Congo, the US against the Native Americans, the Brits against their colonial peoples, the Soviets and the Gulag, Russian pogroms, etc. Why does no one mention the fact that the Brits gladly starved tens of thousands of German civillians to death with their blockade during WW 1, a blockade that they kept up even after the Germans had surrendered? I could go on.

Because the Nazi Holocaust was an an act committed against civilians; against Nazi Germany's own citizens; because it was deliberate extermination on an industrial scale, pursued with scientific method and aimed not merely at eliminating a people, but also at eliminating a culture and a religion.

It's not just the numbers of the dead that counts, but also the intent behind it.

Yes, Mao and Stalin's economic policies killed more people, and the repression of the kulaks and the campaign against the Chinese landlords killed many many people, but the famines in Soviet Russia and China were haphazard affairs and lacked the will to obliterate a whole culture and people.

The difference too, was that Germany and the German people had been for several centuries progenitors of a culture that set high standards in Europe- Soviet Russia and Communist China could (erroneously) be dismissed as not being like us, but Germany gave the world Bach, and Handel, Goethe and Schiller, Durer and Altdorfer, and Luther's Bible and German culture produced Mahler and Wolf, Schiele and Klimt, Bruckner and Mann, Hauptmann and Cranach.

To look at what the Nazis did in the Holocaust was to realize that it was possible for us to do the same.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Locutus
Yes, because napalming 4 million civilians is a very civilized thing to do

Back up your BAM. Of course you can't because not even the North Vietnamese (much less the more honest South Vietnamese) government ever claimed death rates that high from Napalm.

[child of Thor]

Originally posted by molly bloom

Edit:

..... but Germany gave the world Bach, and Handel, Goethe and Schiller, Durer and Altdorfer, and Luther's Bible and German culture produced Mahler and Wolf, Schiele and Klimt, Bruckner and Mann, Hauptmann and Cranach.

To look at what the Nazis did in the Holocaust was to realize that it was possible for us to do the same.

True - so true
That's what scares me when i see the wrong type of patriotism imho as shown to some extent by the thread creator(and others on poly ).

Its not that far beneath the skin when we have war for oil and gitmo mascerading as something other than what it is for many many people.

[Dinner]

Master Zen, if you'd like to discuss mistreatment of natives then shall we talk about Mexico's own appalling record? It is very similiar to the US or Argentine record.

[Atahualpa]

And Oerdin is exactly arguing as the german teenager: look at yourself as well!

The circle closes...

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Atahualpa
And Oerdin is exactly arguing as the german teenager: look at yourself as well!

The circle closes...

Yeah, the classic 'Tu quoque' defence:

" See, you did it too!!!"


Doesn't make it right, though does it.....

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by Oerdin
Master Zen, if you'd like to discuss mistreatment of natives then shall we talk about Mexico's own appalling record? It is very similiar to the US or Argentine record.

Gee I guess that suddenly justifies your own atrocities with natives

Our "record" holds no evidence of atrocities on the same level as your country has done. Atrocities were committed during the Spanish colonial period (mostly throught the 16th century but leading up to the 17th) and this was done by Spanish troops, not ours since well, we didn't really exist at the time.

Since Independence I'd really like you to produce one piece of evidence pointing to systematic slaughter of native populations. ONE. I will not argue that racism exists here and has existed, and that our native populations are mired in poverty and suffer from total government neglect, but if you are arguing that our government ever launched a campaign of sheer slaughter you are only proving that you know utter squat about Mexican history (well, you've proved that more than once before so it's not surprising).

[Master Zen]

btw, Muad'dib totally chickened out.

[chequita guevara]

I think he was banned for being an ass.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Master Zen
if you are arguing that our government ever launched a campaign of sheer slaughter you are only proving that you know utter squat about Mexican history (well, you've proved that more than once before so it's not surprising).

The Mexicans were just as evil to the border Indians as we were. The Apaches hate Mexico every bit as much as they hate us.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Atahualpa
And Oerdin is exactly arguing as the german teenager: look at yourself as well!

The circle closes...

Survey says... BUZZ!!!!

The question is about 19th century treatment of natives therefor examining the treatment of natives in a number of American Countries during the 19th century seems very topical.

[Dinner]

OK, lets have a fact check. in 1492 there were around 80 million natives in the Americas but mostly due to disease (deseases caught from other indians without ever even seeing a white man) the native population collapsed to around 3-5 million by 1800 in the entire western hemisphere. Most of that population was in central American and south America.

As for Mexico's treatment of Natives they most certainly did have several indian wars (look up the caste war, 1848-1901) in which whole sale slaughter occured with just as much frequency as in the US. In addition the Mexican government had a set policy to enslave the native population and to force them to work or suffer beatings or even death. These forced labor system killed far more indians then the indian wars to the north if for no other reason then there were more indians to kill.

[Atahualpa]

Originally posted by molly bloom



Yeah, the classic 'Tu quoque' defence:

" See, you did it too!!!"


Doesn't make it right, though does it.....

I was not defending the girl (or the germans)
I was not saying that it makes it right

I was just pointing out the obvious similar behavior...

[child of Thor]

I think we can all(races/nations) hold up our hands and say " yeah we're bar**ards too! "

I just hope(the ever optomist) that one day one of us(or more) will be able not too.