Netherlands to vote Nee on the European Constitution

[Locutus]

Originally posted by Spiffor

Is the identity crisis in the Netherlands that bad? Do you know of any polls that measure its extent (by any chance)?

Nah, not *that* bad, though it is an issue. But Dutch media are just like media elsewhere: they just love giving the mike to people with 'interesting' opions...

[Spiffor]

Wow, thanks for the answers Locutus

[Traianvs]

I pity the Dutch....

Ah well the governments of France and the Netherlands have only to blame themselves. Why on earth organize a referendum on something that 99,999% of the population doesn't know the details of

[chequita guevara]

Maybe they shouldn't try and pass a four hundred page document off as a constitution. Maybe the EU should look at ours for an example of how to do it correctly.

[DanS]

...recognizing that we screwed up a couple of things big time. 3/5ths of a person and ambiguity on secession spring to mind. The delineation of the powers of the federal government versus the state governments is also an issue (or at least our consideration of that article is problematic).

But for durability, it is an excellent constitution.

[Locutus]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Maybe they shouldn't try and pass a four hundred page document off as a constitution. Maybe the EU should look at ours for an example of how to do it correctly.

Right. Because the EU is a single uniform country...

Of course, if the EU wants a real constitution (which this never really was to begin with), it *should* be much more generic and concise than the current behemoth. But exporting Amerian democracy has rarely really worked well elsewhere and it won't work here. Every nation (or in this case, group of nations) will have to find a form that works best for them.

And that's not to mention that there are quite a few really iffy things about the US constitution. Take the whole 'winner takes all' system of elections, that's just a horrible system and frankly has little to do with democracy (though admittedly, I'm not sure how much of that is actually laid down in the constitution). It certainly wouldn't work for Europe.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Trajanus
Ah well the governments of France and the Netherlands have only to blame themselves. Why on earth organize a referendum on something that 99,999% of the population doesn't know the details of

Because it's a sure win

Seriously, when the French referendum was decided, there was a 60-70% support for the treaty. It was a "permissive consensus" in the population, i.e. the population agreed because it didn't see the issue as a controversial one. That was before the campaign kicked off, before mainstream politicians broke the consensus among politicial circles.

The camapign actually considerably increased awareness of the text, and considerably reduced apathy. This is why the text became controversial. This is why it became shot down.

[DinoDoc]

So when do they force you to vote again like the Irish for the Nice treaty?

[atawa]

Main reason we voted against was total lack of confidence in and respect for our current gouverment.

We dont trust them to negotiate a good treaty so why vote yes when you dont know whats in it?

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
So when do they force you to vote again like the Irish for the Nice treaty?

Considering the huge participation and the large gap between the Oui and the Non, the answer is "not anytime soon". They have the nagging tendancy to do this only when they believe they can win.

Besides, Blair will push for a precocious death of this treaty.

[Solly]

Free trade and friendship, nothing more and definitely nothing less

[Solly]

The fact that Brussels is trying to keep the constitution alive after two very loud "No" votes is in itself a clear explanation of why those "No" votes came along.

[Traianvs]

No, the referendum was completely useless. Voting no will not change matters, it will merely delay them. People voting no don't seem to see this. Either that or they just want to be an arse and vote against the ruling government.
There's no way in stopping the EU ****e. Luckily..

[DanS]

I don't how you can be so optimistic about the state of EU democracy, Trajanus.

[Spiffor]

It seems the Non and Nee have exactly the effect I was hoping for. The Brussels political establishment is now completely hyper, and pushes for plenty of new ideas. It remains to be seen, if this surge of imagination will have effects, but the very presence of this surge of iöagination is the first good step. And it didn't wait either

Here's an article from Le Figaro about these many projects. I can't be arsed to translate, so here's the gist of it (courtsey BBC):

European leaders have been left "dazed" as a result of their treaty plans being thrown into disarray, comments Le Figaro.

"In the corridors of Brussels, the crisis has produced plans B, C and D, sprouting like mushrooms after the rain."

I'd also add that the article mentions the important role of the European Parliament in all these Plans B,C and D. Apparently, the Parliament wants to weigh on the summit between heads of State on June 16-17.

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In other news, it seems that Paris, Berlin and Luxemburg will attempt to block London's willingness to kill the treaty before the end of the ratification process.

The "No" is largely progressing in Luxemburg (referendum on July 10th). Luxemburg's Jean-Claude Juncker says he'll quit as PM if the "No" wins.

The "No" is now in the lead in Denmark (referendum in September)

The Euro has reached an 8-month low today, but the ECB refuses to change its interest rates.

Condoleeza Rice, during a long-planned meeting with Luxemburg's (current EU presiding country) foreign minister and PESC's Javier Solana, says the current situation won't affect the international EU-US relationship.