Netherlands to vote Nee on the European Constitution

[Spiffor]

@Mods: I think the other EU-constitution thread is specific to France. The debate in the Netherlands is a completely different beast to the French one. So, please don't merge the threads

From the BBC:

Dutch vote on Europe constitution
People in the Netherlands are voting on the European Union constitution, just three days after a "No" vote plunged France into crisis.

Early reports suggest voting has been brisk so far among the country's 11.6 million voters.

The Dutch prime minister appealed to the nation to back the treaty but polls predict 60% of voters will oppose it.

Many who intend to vote "No" share their European neighbour's fears about EU expansion and a loss of identity.

The result is non-binding, but PM Jan Peter Balkenende has agreed to abide by it.

'Not democratic enough'

Voting began at 0730 local time (0530 GMT) on Wednesday. Results are expected two hours after polls close at 2100.


DUTCH REFERENDUM
"Yes" camp
Christian Democrats (CDA), largest government party, plus coalition partners VVD and D66
Labour (PVDA) and Green Left opposition parties
"No" camp
Right-wing Pim Fortuyn party
Socialist Party
ChristienUnie and SGP, Christian parties

The BBC News website's Stephen Mulvey in Amsterdam says he saw large numbers of people voting early, and a steady trickle throughout the morning.

The mood has been generally calm, with little evidence of political activity outside polling stations, he says.

"I voted 'No'. I believe the current treaty is not democratic enough," Amsterdam voter Joris Kampmeijer, 28, told AFP news agency.

"I think it's a good thing if there's a strong Europe," "Yes" voter Jaena Padberg told AP at a community school in the city. "It's good that our rights will be secured."

Prime Minister Jan Peter Balkenende voted at his local polling station near Rotterdam.

"The future of the Netherlands is in Europe," he said on Dutch television late on Tuesday.

"I believe a 'No' vote is not in the interest of the Netherlands, not of Europe."

Discontent

Correspondents say that a second vote against the constitution could create a snowball effect throughout the bloc.

The treaty - which aims to streamline EU institutions following the admission of 10 new members - has to be approved by all 25 member states before it can take effect.

In France, the decisive rejection of the document forced President Jacques Chirac to remove his prime minister.

He replaced Jean-Pierre Raffarin with Dominique de Villepin in a bid to prove he had listened and responded to voters' discontent.

In the Netherlands, any rejection of the constitution is unlikely to have the same impact as the Dutch vote is non-binding.

Interference

But the BBC's Geraldine Coughlan in The Hague says voters are unhappy about higher prices since the euro and discontented with the centre-right government.

Many also feel threatened by what they see as a superstate that will interfere with liberal policies such as those on gay marriage and euthanasia.

Others disagree with the swift enlargement of the EU, and oppose the possible inclusion of Turkey.

However, government and major opposition parties, making up 80% of the country's MPs, support the draft constitution in the belief that it will enhance Dutch influence in Europe.

Looks like a massive "Nee" will happen in Netherlands.

[BeBMan]

What is your idea how the Eu should proceed - back to the drawing board, totally new con....or back to Nice, with some of the usual bureaucratic additions....

[DeathByTheSword]

yeah to bad...to many people will vote Nee because they dont know what is in the constitution...this is not something so cleary were you can vote yes or no on...like a chosen mayor is easy you want it or you dont want it...but this constitution has SO MANY things in it that it is hard to be for or against everything....so that is way a lot of people will vote nee...that and last week we heard that the guilder was valued wrong against the euro...a lot of people (stupidly) believe that is way we right no dont have a strong economy and a big inflation...

[Spiffor]

I haven't found any genuinely Dutch news source in English, and thus I have to rely on foreign press to understand the Dutch vote. According to my experience, the foreign press is completely unable to understand the nuances of the vote.

So, 'Poly Dutchmen, could you please tell me if the following is true? (please also indicate if you vote yes or no )

The main issue of the Nee campaign is the fear of identity loss. The Nee voters fear that Netherlands become an irrelevant province in the EU-Superstate, from which Turkish workers will pour.

There is a general fear of everything foreign ever since Pim Fortuyn's and Theo van Gogh's assassinations. The public opinion wants to "go back to fundamentals", i.e the nation State.

Economically, the Dutch gripe about the Euro (high prices, under-evaluation of the Gulden) and the high net contributions to the EU. The French issue against the EU's free-marketeer policies is nowhere to be seen.

The referendum will be fueled by discontent toward the current government, but not overly so.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by DeathByTheSword
but this constitution has SO MANY things in it that it is hard to be for or against everything

Yet, this is what a ratification is for. The treaty has been negociated for years, and has found its definitive form last autumn in Rome. Every country must now ratify it, i.e. either accept everything, or reject everything.

[DeathByTheSword]

The main issue of the Nee campaign is the fear of identity loss. The Nee voters fear that Netherlands become an irrelevant province in the EU-Superstate, from which Turkish workers will pour

a stupid myth in my eyes fueled by

pim portuyn (assisnated by a left wing tree hugger)
ayan hirsi ali (a woman who has fallen of her muslim fate and is now against every thing muslim, in hiding because of a lot of death threats (muslims mostly))
Geert Wilders (a guy that tries to be the next pim portuyn. also in hiding because of a lot of death threats (muslims mostly))

There is a general fear of everything foreign ever since Pim Fortuyn's and Theo van Gogh's assassinations. The public opinion wants to "go back to fundamentals", i.e the nation State.

fear for foreigners is also a issue one i didnt understand until i most to the west...i never had any problem with minorities and will never have but the problem here is that they form there own little countries...there is no mixing of cultures anymore...mostly because of fanatics from both sides

Economically, the Dutch gripe about the Euro (high prices, under-evaluation of the Gulden) and the high net contributions to the EU. The French issue against the EU's free-marketeer policies is nowhere to be seen.

it is an issue but read my post above

The referendum will be fueled by discontent toward the current government, but not overly so.

nobody is really happy with the government right now but i dont think that is the reason to vote no. most of the opposition parties are also in favor of it


after work i will go and vote yes. but i also have my doubts and i hope that the netherlands can still be the utopia of Free speech, paid sex and legal drugs

[DeathByTheSword]

Originally posted by Spiffor

Yet, this is what a ratification is for. The treaty has been negociated for years, and has found its definitive form last autumn in Rome. Every country must now ratify it, i.e. either accept everything, or reject everything.

yes i understand that but for joe average it is way to confusing...so you ask people that know something about it...and some say yes because of X and some say no because of Y...that just adds to the confusing...and when in doubt people will tend to not do something hence the big NO vote

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by BeBro
What is your idea how the Eu should proceed - back to the drawing board, totally new con....or back to Nice, with some of the usual bureaucratic additions....

I can't make a good prognosis before the next European Council, in two weeks. The constitution might well be killed June 16-17, if Blair convinces his European partners to stop the ratification process (the only way for Blair to avoid a suicidal referendum is for the constitution to be given up before the UK has to ratify).

If the ratification process continues unabated until fall 2006, I think the European Council will understand that it will be impossible to have the treaty be accepted in new referenda (especially in France, but I believe in the Netherlands and the UK as well). They'll have to get back to the drawing board. Simply because the EU is way too unwieldy under Nice rules.

The New convention should quickly understand (in 2007-2008) that it is impossible to find a compromise that will have both the French and the English to vote Yes. This is why I think the two-tier Europe will stop being a mere hypothesis, but that it'll become the only solution.

[Spiffor]

Thanks for the replies DBTS

[lightblue]

I think the idea of a European superstate is never going to happen. It feels like more and more the EU will turn more into what countries like the UK or Poland want from it, i.e. a free trade zone with free movement of goods and to a certain extent people.

My main gripe with EU is the CAP. I think they should get rid of it as a show of goodwill to the world. It encourages dumping of cheap produce on the 3rd World, and it eats up too much of the budget. France won't like it but, they're now in the slow lane of a multispeed europe as well and they have lost an awful lot of power due to the NON vote. Time to take advantage and get rid of that bloated thing.

[DeathByTheSword]

the CAP is the subsidy for farmers right?

[lightblue]

Yup

[DeathByTheSword]

then to your post of removing the CAP...but to brittish idea of the EU

[lightblue]

Well it's what was the original idea behind the whole thing really. More integration would be nice, but the economies and social policies of all the member state are too radically different for it to work just by writing a fat constitution that noone has read, and fewer people understand. If you have referendums about these things make the constitution a legible document to lay people, and back it up with legislation, instead of sticking all the legislation in the constitution itself.

[BeBMan]

Yeah, it is in other words - a weak Europe, with national states that are only there to be minor allies of another superpower.