Netherlands to vote Nee on the European Constitution

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by CapTVK
Well, in a way it does. It goes all the way back to 1950´s when France their coal and iron supplies under combined control. This treaty has a link with history.

The European construction is definitely the factor that makes any European war unlikely in the forseeable future But the question asked by this constitution is not whether the European construction is a good idea (it undoubtedly is), but whether we want the constitution's particular guidelines to lead the future of Europe for the coming decades.

If the constitution dies, the European construction will continue nonetheless, and so will European peace.

[CapTVK]

Originally posted by CyberShy
CapTVK: I think much people have actually voted blank today.
On the radio they were talking all day about how people couldn't find the blank-vote button and complained about that.
It wouldn't be such a big radio issue if not much people were trying to vote blank.

I have voted "yes" (I'm actually apparantly in the same camp as my fellow poly-friends! Usually I'm in opposite to you guys strange days these days )

I think we may be surprised that the end result actually may be a "yes"!

I also voted yes*. I was up real early today (yesterday I decided to take on this "Nice+ monster" and got through it around 3´ o clock in the morning. There are a lot of problems facing the EU (not just globalisation) and we can only handle this together. Crappy EU treaty or not, we can always improve it later on. Also, personally I see a "no" as a vote of betrayal to the new EU members in Eastern Europe. Just at the moment they´ve become offical members we slam the door in their faces. Nice going....


*The idea about voting blanco came about later while discussing this at the office. But it seems a lot of my fellow countrymen are way ahead of me

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by CapTVK
Crappy EU treaty or not, we can always improve it later on.

You mean like this?

Article IV-443 Ordinary revision procedure

1. The government of any Member State, the European Parliament or the Commission may submit to the Council proposals for the amendment of this Treaty. These proposals shall be submitted to the European Council by the Council and the national Parliaments shall be notified.

2. If the European Council, after consulting the European Parliament and the Commission, adopts by a simple majority a decision in favour of examining the proposed amendments, the President of the European Council shall convene a Convention composed of representatives of the national Parliaments, of the Heads of State or Government of the Member States, of the European Parliament and of the Commission. The European Central Bank shall also be consulted in the case of institutional changes in the monetary area. The Convention shall examine the proposals for amendments and shall adopt by consensus a recommendation to a conference of representatives of the governments of the Member States as provided for in paragraph 3.

The European Council may decide by a simple majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament, not to convene a Convention should this not be justified by the extent of the proposed amendments. In the latter case, the European Council shall define the terms of reference for a conference of representatives of the governments of the Member States.

3. A conference of representatives of the governments of the Member States shall be convened by the President of the Council for the purpose of determining by common accord the amendments to be made to this Treaty.

The amendments shall enter into force after being ratified by all the Member States in accordance with their respective constitutional requirements.

4. If, two years after the signature of the treaty amending this Treaty, four fifths of the Member States have ratified it and one or more Member States have encountered difficulties in proceeding with ratification, the matter shall be referred to the European Council.

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by Spiffor
If the constitution dies, the European construction will continue nonetheless, and so will European peace.

I hope so.

But I find the nationalistic tones in the debate annoying. The cliches about those from the east (Poles, whatever) who may ruin our job market etc....Of course there is a certain economical background to this, which must be discussed, but IMO the debate also has also ingredients of national arrogance since it paints some ugly stereotypes (and I don't mean only France, I hear similar stuff in Gemany, despite there wasn't a referendum here).

[Locutus]

Originally posted by Hueij
Voting "No" would be voting for all the wrong reasons.

Erm... doesn't that kind of depend on those reasons, not on the vote itself?

I voted No exactly because I believe that *that* is the most effective way to keep the French and Germanas from shooting at each other

I admit it's highly embarrassing that that puts me in the same camp as all those idiots like Wilders & Co, but surely I shouldn't change my vote just because of the nonsensical anti-EU slander campaign of those people?

[Robert]

The fact that you're in the same camp as all idiots overhere in The Netherlands should've opened your eyes

[Sandman]

Originally posted by lightblue
My main gripe with EU is the CAP. I think they should get rid of it as a show of goodwill to the world. It encourages dumping of cheap produce on the 3rd World, and it eats up too much of the budget. France won't like it but, they're now in the slow lane of a multispeed europe as well and they have lost an awful lot of power due to the NON vote. Time to take advantage and get rid of that bloated thing.

Food sovereignty

[Locutus]

Originally posted by Spiffor
Locutus:

Do you think the issues mentioned in the BBC article, and those I mentioned in my second post, accurately reflect the Dutch debate?

Essentially, that's probably a pretty fair summary of it, yes. It's fear of identity loss, combined with just a protest vote -- against the government, against the EU, against the bad economy, against everything that's wrong in life. The same things we used to blame on the Germans we now blame on the Constitution and the EU

It's purely an emotional vote for most people: for the Nee camp because of reasons cited above, while the Ja camp mostly votes against the Nee camp -- most of them don't know anything about the details of the constitution either. The government says it's good for Europe, so it must be...

[CapTVK]

Spiffor,

Hey stranger things can happen, i´ve seen the EU institutions closeby and they actually do some good work


Btw,
I also apologize for my outburst past sunday. I should explain why. At the place I work we also have international training course program where we also see people from Eastern Europe. When they come here we also organize some social events to get to know each other (play a few games, drink etc...). Quite fun and they enjoyed themselves as well.

So I when saw France voted no I felt France had left them down. I felt France as a founding member had left everybody down. I had seen the polls and knew where it was going but in my heart i had kept that small thinge of hope. At the time it happened I was quite angry, now I´m just a little sad . But I know i must go forward...

[lord of the mark]

no wins, 63-37.

[Kuciwalker]

Ouch...

[DanS]

Oof. High turnout too.

Stick a fork in this one. It's done.

[Winston]

Still, with a turnout of ~60%, it would seem even more people didn't care than those who opposed it.

[BeBMan]

Maybe we should hand over the con to Paradox Games. They patch it a few dozen times and everything will be fine.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by BeBro
Maybe we should hand over the con to Paradox Games. They patch it a few dozen times and everything will be fine.

EU V1.8?

or EU2?