Netherlands to vote Nee on the European Constitution

[DanS]

Unfortunately, as stated, the 10th Amendment to the US Constitution is very durable but also very weak, because during the Great Depression and afterward it has been taken to mean that little is left to the States (a willfully incorrect reading).

This need not be bloated, in my view. It only needs to be a list of what is left to the States. The US Constitution briefly lists the powers of the congress, the judiciary, and the executive branch, but not the powers of the States.

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by Spiffor

Well, I think the divide on the future of the EU is fairly consistent. For example, the Netherlands have mostly rejected the treaty because they feared a superstate, while most Germans want further European integration, and support a re-negociation of the treaty (unless my German is that rusty )

Yeah, but the devil is in the detail here - most people want generally this and that, integration and all, yet politicians as well as normal people seem also to be quick to complain about the Eu not only if it is justified, but also if it serves their purpose.

I think there's a certain.... hm...disharmony (poorly expressed probably) between domestic national politics and Eu, and also between the ideal of a more integrated Eu and the practical need for a compromise to make that work, esp. when this compromise means that certain people/states/politcal forces/whatever do not get their maximal goals through. In other words many of those which say they are for an Eu seem to mean they are for an Eu, but only to their own conditions - which contradicts the basic idea of such a union.

I could be wrong, but that is my impression.....

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by BeBro
In other words many of those which say they are for an Eu seem to mean they are for an Eu, but only to their own conditions - which contradicts the basic idea of such a union.

I could be wrong, but that is my impression.....

I think you are right. However, I think the Germans have the potential to accept majority rule in the Union. Especially if the other countries that participate in this "Superstate Union" are similar minded. This is why I think the Germans could do with supranational decisions (provided they're democratic enough) whereas the Rosbifs simply can't.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Spiffor

I think you are right. However, I think the Germans have the potential to accept majority rule in the Union. Especially if the other countries that participate in this "Superstate Union" are similar minded. This is why I think the Germans could do with supranational decisions (provided they're democratic enough) whereas the Rosbifs simply can't.

the hypothesis being that Germans are closer to the French on issues of substance than the Brits.

1. How does this square with poll results showing strong support for the German CD's, who seem to have a platform that is more "neoliberal" than the CD had in earlier elections, if still perhaps to the left of Blairism(?)
2. Would Poland be interested in a tighter EU, more "social" and without UK?
3. If not, would that be an issue for Germany?
4. If Poland and Germany went different ways (Germany with France, and Poland with UK) how would Czecho and Hungary go? Denmark?

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
1. How does this square with poll results showing strong support for the German CD's, who seem to have a platform that is more "neoliberal" than the CD had in earlier elections, if still perhaps to the left of Blairism(?)

LOTM, the issue I was raising is not so much that of a social vs. liberal Europe, but the issue of national sovereignty, and on whether Europe should stop at being merely a free-trade area or not. The Germans are quite clearly on the side that wants the EU to be more than that.

2. Would Poland be interested in a tighter EU, more "social" and without UK?

I have no reliable info, but I'd say probably not. The Poles seem to be very protective of their national sovereignty.

3. If not, would that be an issue for Germany?

No idea.

4. If Poland and Germany went different ways (Germany with France, and Poland with UK) how would Czecho and Hungary go? Denmark?

I have no precise idea about Czech and Hungary, though I heard they differend quite a bit from the Poles on the issue.

Denmark would most probably want to go with the brits. They joined the EEC along with the Brits, and they have been consistently protective of their sovereignty (rejected the Maastritch treaty, rejected the Euro, opt-out of many policy areas)

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
2. Would Poland be interested in a tighter EU, more "social" and without UK?

I think this touches one of the key problems - as much as I am for good social standards, realistically they could mean economical disaster for eastern Europe when introduced Eu wide now. They can only be introduced if the economies there have enough power for those measures, which they probably do not have now, despite good growth rates at the moment in eastern Euro states..... (correct me if I am wrong - I don't claim to be an economy expert )

To your other q's

1 You mean the CDU? IMO simply because people are fed up with the current government. And since unemployment is still high after various measures they think another gov will do better, and there aren't much alternatives to most people.

3 and 4 I'm not sure

[Traianvs]

Another possibility is that the Nice Treaty become "Nice Plus", i.e. that the treaty gets amended, so that it has some new things from the dead constitution.

That would be utterly useless. It would still be incomplete, and subsequently a new amendation or something similar will be developed later on. That's a never ending process in which different lobbyists would try to get their ideas accepted.

Another possibility is that there is a new convention that is elected by the Europeans, or that a new Constitution gets ratified by an Europe-wide referendum.

A completely new constitution? You want to have the debates all over again? It's good as it is already.. Why live through the hassle again

Some believe that a new constitution should be rewritten, so that it becomes more democratic, more open to the wishes of the people. I am under the impression that, if there is any new constitution, it will be significantly more democratic indeed (several international presses and politicians see both Noes as a rejection of a top-down Europe)

How do you define 'democratic'. I don't think you or anyone here would have anything to say in that 'new' constitution. Maybe populists would like to implement 'popular' ideas.. But where does that lead to? An ochlocracy probably.

Let's just stick to our elections. There is plenty of opportunity to make changes that way.
Very often European elections are largely ignored, including in Belgium. I remember our previous elections were held at the same time as the local elections (not the nationwide elections) and the European debate was not held. It was not thought of as important.
But now, all of a sudden... they don't like what's happening???
hypocrits, that's what I call 'em

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by BeBro

. And since unemployment is still high after various measures they think another gov will do better, and there aren't much alternatives to most people.

The PDS? It seems odd, from over here, that if folks were unhappy with the govt (SD/Green) for pushing too hard against social protections, that they then went and voted for the CDU (in NRW) when there were serious far left parties on the ballot. I mean its almost like you had a narrow, first past the post, two party system like we do here.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Spiffor

LOTM, the issue I was raising is not so much that of a social vs. liberal Europe, but the issue of national sovereignty, and on whether Europe should stop at being merely a free-trade area or not. The Germans are quite clearly on the side that wants the EU to be more than that.

2. Would Poland be interested in a tighter EU, more "social" and without UK?

I have no reliable info, but I'd say probably not. The Poles seem to be very protective of their national sovereignty.

3. If not, would that be an issue for Germany?

No idea.

4. If Poland and Germany went different ways (Germany with France, and Poland with UK) how would Czecho and Hungary go? Denmark?

I have no precise idea about Czech and Hungary, though I heard they differend quite a bit from the Poles on the issue.

Denmark would most probably want to go with the brits. They joined the EEC along with the Brits, and they have been consistently protective of their sovereignty (rejected the Maastritch treaty, rejected the Euro, opt-out of many policy areas)

I guess what im thinking is that while Germany is more open to a more integrated EU than UK is, Im still not sure if theyd rather have a small but very integrated EU (what I think you want) over a larger, less integrated EU (the Blair model?). And the smaller the "inner tier" gets, the less attractive it becomes. A more integrated EU of the 25, or of 20, is one thing. A more integrated EU consisting of the original 6, minus the Netherlands, plus Ireland, Spain, and Czecho (dragged along by its dependence on Germany) is quite another.

BTW, does anyone there ever have occasion to refer to the Europe of the 6, the Europe of the 9? Am I showing my age?

[BeBMan]

PDS could do maybe a bit better, but probably not much. In the western part of Germany they still don't have a good reputation, and aren't organized as well as in the east. There's talk about some new left movement/party/platform left of the SPD and including the PDS, but it probably comes too late for the next elections, and there are still lots of differences between the various leftist formations there.

About the CDU - the other parties are simply not able to get majorities, only SPD and CDU are considered mainstream parties, so if the feeling is anti-SPD now the CDU does not even need to do mcuh of its own to win. There is currently no alternative third party which would look attractive to many people here. So those have only the option not to vote, to vote more extreme (which usually does not happen at national scale) or to elect the former oppositon.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Trajanus
A completely new constitution? You want to have the debates all over again? It's good as it is already.. Why live through the hassle again

It sucks donkey balls. The constitution's only redeeming quality is that it is slightly less terrible than Nice. This constitution is definitely not something we can build Europe upon for the next 30-50 years.

How do you define 'democratic'. I don't think you or anyone here would have anything to say in that 'new' constitution.

That's funny. I just had something to say about the current one, 5 days ago.

Very often European elections are largely ignored, including in Belgium. I remember our previous elections were held at the same time as the local elections (not the nationwide elections) and the European debate was not held. It was not thought of as important.

But now, all of a sudden... they don't like what's happening???
hypocrits, that's what I call 'em

The debate is structurated by the political parties and by the media. Both the political parties and the media see the local issues as easier, and they believe the audience will be more hooked by domestic debates than by european ones.
This situation creates a dire lack of European awareness among the population. This is why the population never openly criticizes the direction of Europe (considering that many still see politics strictly through the national scope).
During the referendum, despite the attempts to make the debate on domestic issues, the European awareness of the citizens has considerably increased. This is why, exceptionally, they had their say about how Europe is going. Both the French and the Dutch have expressed their strong discontent.

[CapTVK]

Originally posted by Spiffor

During the referendum, despite the attempts to make the debate on domestic issues, the European awareness of the citizens has considerably increased. This is why, exceptionally, they had their say about how Europe is going. Both the French and the Dutch have expressed their strong discontent.

Yes, but awareness is not the same as being informed. Getting informed sometimes requires time and effort. The public may not have that kind of patience. Now you end up with a public that will decide on the basis of some quick&easy "facts" while the actual situation may be far more complex.

[Ned]

It looks like the budget restrictions imposed on nations that use the Euro are also a problem. Italy is considering withdrawing from using the Euro as currency. http://reuters.myway.com/article/200...Y-EURO-DC.html

[CapTVK]

That would be most unwise

[Ned]

Can I ask a stupendously dumb question?

What is wrong with using the US constitution as a template for a United States of Europe?